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secretninja
Dec 9, 2006, 4:09 AM
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Just wondering what people thought about ice climbers drytooling existing rock routes. A buddy of mine just about got his left nut taken off by rock climbers while drytooling this summer at grassi lake, and with ice season upon us, i figured i'd see what popular opinon was.
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stymingersfink
Dec 9, 2006, 4:15 AM
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there are plenty of dry-tooling routes around here which no-one will ever climb on in the summer. Better to stick to those, regardless of the time of year.
Dry-tooling really fucks up the rock, better to keep it contained to limited areas IMHO.
For the record, yes, I do M-climb when necessary.
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secretninja
Dec 9, 2006, 4:24 AM
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around here being UT? Because while that may kick ass there, its one hell of a commute from Canmore Alberta, Canada.
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epsilon
Dec 9, 2006, 4:39 AM
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If you are in Canmore there is really no excuse to be drytooling established rock climbs. Go to the Cineplex or one of the multitude of other drytooling crags in the area.
On the other hand, if you do develop a drytool crag, be sure not to let the sport climbers take it over and act like now that they've started climbing it "free" that it's off-limits to drytooling. Any route put up with tools is free to be climbed with tools for ever afterwards IMO.
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secretninja
Dec 9, 2006, 4:53 AM
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thats exactly what happened to some routes put up last season near white buddah...
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epsilon
Dec 9, 2006, 5:37 AM
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That's total BS then. No different that some sport climber trying to argue that since they freed an established aid route it can't be climbed on aid in the future. It should always be the case that the style used on the FA of a route is acceptable for repeat ascents, no matter if it has been climbed in a "better" style since then.
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kman
Dec 9, 2006, 6:13 AM
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Grassi Lakes is an extremely busy and popular rock climbing area.
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collegekid
Dec 9, 2006, 6:26 AM
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secretninja wrote: Just wondering what people thought about ice climbers drytooling existing rock routes. A buddy of mine just about got his left nut taken off by rock climbers while drytooling this summer at grassi lake, and with ice season upon us, i figured i'd see what popular opinon was.
Why would you drytool instead of regular climbing? Training for Ice climbing or is it like a different kind of aid?
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musicman1586
Dec 9, 2006, 7:33 AM
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In my opinion, already established free routes should be left as is, if your on a pre-existing route, then that's about as bad as chipping to me personally, because it destroys the route for future climbers. I agree though, that if the first ascent was done in that manner, then it's fair game, however, if older aid routes are able to be done cleanly, I think they should be. I'm kinda mixed, I think dry-tooling and mixed climbing is pretty awesome, but at the same time, I see it as a slight return to the pre-clean climbing era, which is not something I want to see happen. I think it's something that needs to be taken conservatively.
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overlord
Dec 9, 2006, 9:50 AM
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secretninja wrote: Just wondering what people thought about ice climbers drytooling existing rock routes. A buddy of mine just about got his left nut taken off by rock climbers while drytooling this summer at grassi lake, and with ice season upon us, i figured i'd see what popular opinon was.
the popular opinion is that he should have had both nuts torn off and the icetools stuck up hes @ss.
you should never ever drytool on established not-drytool routes (both free and aid) because drytooling WILL destroy them. if you live in an area with established drytooling/mixed/ice routes, climb there, if there arent any, find a chosspile and develop it. thats what drytoolers did here, with fixed draws and everything.
as for freeing a drytooling route... good for you, but the route remains a drytooling playground. saying that because it was sent free it can no longer be a drytooling route is like saying that because they have f1 races in monake youre no longer allowed to drive around town.
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flamer
Dec 9, 2006, 2:28 PM
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If a route was chipped to put it up then it's free game for dry tooling. No ethics means NO ETHICS!
josh
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camhead
Dec 9, 2006, 6:25 PM
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flamer wrote: If a route was chipped to put it up then it's free game for dry tooling. No ethics means NO ETHICS! josh
flamer, that's incredibly dangerous logic. Essentially translates to "since you defaced the rock, I'll deface it even more!" Most sport routes at Smith are "manufactured" to some degree. That does not give a dry-tooler permission to start levering the hell off of fragile edges and pockets.
You certainly would NOT apply that logic to nailing a route that now goes clean, would you, even if it had pin scars?
Though I've never drytooled, and really have no interest in it, I think it should be totally obvious that one should NEVER drytool an existing free route. Repeat the route in the same style or better!
There is plenty of choss to go around.
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ninjaclimb
Dec 9, 2006, 6:39 PM
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don't drytool existing non-drytooling routes. if the route was done non-drytooling, leave it that way.
if there are no mixed/drytooling crags in your area then create one. find a roadcut or choss pile and climb some new routes.
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flamer
Dec 9, 2006, 6:48 PM
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camhead wrote: flamer, that's incredibly dangerous logic.
So is manufacturing routes.
josh
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camhead
Dec 9, 2006, 7:10 PM
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flamer wrote: camhead wrote: flamer, that's incredibly dangerous logic. So is manufacturing routes. josh
seems like you didn't read the rest of my post. let me rephrase.
JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE DEFACES THE ROCK DOES NOT JUSTIFY YOU TO DO IT MORE!
I'm sure we have all heard the cliché "two wrongs don't make a right."
finé.
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kachoong
Dec 9, 2006, 9:29 PM
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Reminds me of the time back at the end of 97 when I visited the States for the first time and learned to ice climb in Boulder. They had just set up ice farming in Boulder Canyon. I'm sure plenty of you remember the fall-out from that?
Some of the routes were being climbed by ice climbers before the ice had formed and the sport climbers got pissed. I guess it was them who slashed the hoses, allowing less ice to form and more ice climbers subsequently climbed them, causing more problems for the sports climbers than if they had originally left the hoses alone and let the ice form properly and thick.
I guess this is topic is more about pure drytool routes though, but I thought I'd go back down memory lane, coz it remined me of back then. Good ole vampire rock!! Loved the routes on that thing!
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curt
Dec 9, 2006, 10:52 PM
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epsilon wrote: That's total BS then. No different that some sport climber trying to argue that since they freed an established aid route it can't be climbed on aid in the future. It should always be the case that the style used on the FA of a route is acceptable for repeat ascents, no matter if it has been climbed in a "better" style since then.
Even interjected into this retarded thread, your post stands out as a monument to ignorance.
Curt
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epsilon
Dec 9, 2006, 11:09 PM
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Right, so basically what you are saying is that sport climbers exist at the top of the pecking order and hence they have the absolute right to take over routes and insist that they never be climbed again on gear? I suppose you also think that the Nose should never be aided again and should be the exclusive property of the few dozen people with the skill and inclination to free a grade VI wall.
A route established on tools using M-climbing techniques is meant to be M-climbed. If someone wants to free climb it they certainly have the right to do so, but that doesn't immediately put it off-limits to those who wish to climb it in the intended style.
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flamer
Dec 10, 2006, 12:00 AM
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camhead wrote: flamer wrote: camhead wrote: flamer, that's incredibly dangerous logic. So is manufacturing routes. josh seems like you didn't read the rest of my post. let me rephrase. JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE DEFACES THE ROCK DOES NOT JUSTIFY YOU TO DO IT MORE! I'm sure we have all heard the cliché "two wrongs don't make a right." finé.
While i generally agree with you I'm primarily making a point.
What's the difference bewteen taking a chisel or drill to a section of rock...or using ice tools to climb it???
josh
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curt
Dec 10, 2006, 1:41 AM
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epsilon wrote: Right, so basically what you are saying is that sport climbers exist at the top of the pecking order and hence they have the absolute right to take over routes and insist that they never be climbed again on gear? I suppose you also think that the Nose should never be aided again and should be the exclusive property of the few dozen people with the skill and inclination to free a grade VI wall. A route established on tools using M-climbing techniques is meant to be M-climbed. If someone wants to free climb it they certainly have the right to do so, but that doesn't immediately put it off-limits to those who wish to climb it in the intended style.
First of all "sport climbers" aren't at the top of any pecking order--particularly where climbing ethics are concerned. More importantly though, many many old aid climbs were in fact free-climbed specifically so that damaging, non-clean aid ascents of those routes would cease. In general, once a route has gone free with natural protection, only hammerless aid ascents are considered to be kosher. That happens to be the established ethic in many areas. It wouldn't kill you to learn a little about the factual history of climbing before posting something so fundamentally incorrect.
Curt
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tattooed_climber
Dec 10, 2006, 2:05 AM
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unless its a mixed route (or some junker chipped wall thats see better days) your buddy deserves to get his ass kicked
you can get away with that shit in the alpine, but not at the crags
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troutboy
Dec 10, 2006, 4:11 AM
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epsilon wrote: That's total BS then. No different that some sport climber trying to argue that since they freed an established aid route it can't be climbed on aid in the future. It should always be the case that the style used on the FA of a route is acceptable for repeat ascents, no matter if it has been climbed in a "better" style since then.
Don't want to get in to this drytooling arument, but by your logic it would be perfectly fine for folks to go hammering pins on numerous big wall routes that now go free and/or hammerless.
Not sure how old you are, but hammering clean aid routes went out about the same time "Hammerin'" Hank Aaron retired.
And I can only imagine what might happen to someone caught hammering pins on High E or any other classic at the Gunks that were first climbed using pitons and hammers.
You may now continue the drytooling arguments....
TS
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braaaaaaaadley
Dec 10, 2006, 5:29 AM
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I'll bite... personally I feel that if you do not leave the rock the way it was before you got on it then you have no business being on the rock unless you own the property that it is located on reguardless of who did the FA and in what style. How would you all feel if backpackers lugged around chainsaws and cleared camps whenever they felt like they were tired after a long day's hike. If everybody did that then the woods would be pretty messed up after a short period of time. Its the same deal with the rock except for the fact that there is a lot less of it. Simply put there is a place for drytooling... and its not on routes that are established or could potentially be established in the future. So people please, keep your drytooling to the alpine relm on climbs that you are not spoiling for others or chosspiles where good climbing is not possible.
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petsfed
Dec 10, 2006, 5:43 AM
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I dunno, if a route is egregiously chipped (like more than half the holds have been "improved" in one way or another) and its in a less travelled area, I see no problem with drytooling there.
I mean, if I decided to dry tool at an area like Rifle or Smith where even the chipped routes get a lot of travel, that'd be different. When its your local chosspile and there's just the one creatively developed route that gets all of it, I don't think it would be a problem.
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musicman1586
Dec 10, 2006, 9:46 AM
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flamer wrote: camhead wrote: flamer wrote: camhead wrote: flamer, that's incredibly dangerous logic. So is manufacturing routes. josh seems like you didn't read the rest of my post. let me rephrase. JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE DEFACES THE ROCK DOES NOT JUSTIFY YOU TO DO IT MORE! I'm sure we have all heard the cliché "two wrongs don't make a right." finé. While i generally agree with you I'm primarily making a point. What's the difference bewteen taking a chisel or drill to a section of rock...or using ice tools to climb it??? josh
Referring to drilling and sport climbing, the difference is that once the bolt is in the wall, no further defacement comes to the rock. A dry-tooled route gets defaced everytime a climber gets on it.
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