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rastafarout
Feb 8, 2007, 10:14 PM
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Specially when he/she have a hard time to finish the pitch.Is that a good idea?I assume it would help me to drag her/his azz up.Anybody have an opinion?Or is there any better way?
THX
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cdrisc
Feb 8, 2007, 10:44 PM
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set up a haul system with a grigri and a friction knot or just 2 friction knot. this way its easier to pull up and you have no teeth digging into your rope. if you want you can use the mini traxion as a friction knot and it won't dig into your rope as much as using it as the beley device
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clintcummins
Feb 8, 2007, 10:53 PM
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I'd say not such a good idea, because it will be harder to lower them if they give up. It is also not that easy to haul somebody up, unless they are pretty light. Better is a grigri or similar, so they can rest on the rope and then make progress themselves. Even better is to choose a climb that is not so hard for them, or one which you can clean on rappel if they can't make it up.
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devkrev
Feb 8, 2007, 11:27 PM
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Lemme re-state your question....
"Is it safe to belay a second with a device not designed for belaying a second?"
dev
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caughtinside
Feb 8, 2007, 11:46 PM
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devkrev wrote: Lemme re-state your question.... "Is it safe to belay a second with a device not designed for belaying a second?" dev
well, the mini-t is designed for hauling loads. and it is commonly used for toprope soloing.
I think that it would work, but is not the ideal device. ie, lowering, teeth, etc.
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ne_dan
Feb 9, 2007, 12:48 AM
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Let's see
Reverso: $26.95 weight 81g
Black Diamond ATC Guide: $25.95 weight 102g
Trango B-52: $24.95 60g
Mini Traxion : $69 weight 165 g, workin load as a pulley 2kn(~450 pounds), breaking strength as a pulley 6.6kn(~1485 pounds)
If you use the Mini Traxion to belay a second you will load it over the roller the same way you would as if you were using it as a pulley. Pretty low breaking strength.
Also it weighs more costs more and has teeth.
(This post was edited by ne_dan on Feb 9, 2007, 12:49 AM)
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holdeddie
Feb 9, 2007, 12:50 AM
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Use a gri-gri
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chalkfree
Feb 9, 2007, 12:53 AM
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No.
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hosh
Feb 9, 2007, 1:28 AM
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ne_dan wrote: Let's see Reverso: $26.95 weight 81g Black Diamond ATC Guide: $25.95 weight 102g Trango B-52: $24.95 60g Mini Traxion : $69 weight 165 g, workin load as a pulley 2kn(~450 pounds), breaking strength as a pulley 6.6kn(~1485 pounds) If you use the Mini Traxion to belay a second you will load it over the roller the same way you would as if you were using it as a pulley. Pretty low breaking strength. Also it weighs more costs more and has teeth.
yeah. What he said.
get an ATC Guide. Totally worth the money.
hosh.
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dr_feelgood
Feb 9, 2007, 1:49 AM
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is it just me or is an ATC Guide a bitch to pull up slack on? It was difficult to feed and twisted the crap out of my rope when i used it...
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rastafarout
Feb 9, 2007, 2:28 AM
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Yeah,thats exactly my concern dr_feelgood.
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rastafarout
Feb 9, 2007, 8:29 PM
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Maybe i should restate.
"Hauling" the second with mini traxion.
Anybody?
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Davey
Feb 9, 2007, 8:52 PM
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I would still be worried about the strength issue. The mini traxion is not made for hauling a person. I think what you should look at is pettzl's I'D. It works like the GriGri but has an anti panic function that will make for better braking while still letting you release it.
So my answer is no. use the right tool for the job.
Petzl I'D
http://en.petzl.com/...Produits?Produit=205
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cdrisc
Feb 9, 2007, 8:56 PM
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i'd still use a grigri or two friction knots due to the teeth, but it won't kill your rope immediately....
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Davey
Feb 9, 2007, 8:58 PM
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Ah. I see your point. Yeah what he seed.
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abtisme
Feb 9, 2007, 9:07 PM
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its really easy to set up a belay device that is it autoblock mode to haul the second. all you need is a prussik and a locker. set the prussik up as low as you can reach on the end that is going to your second. take the brake end and clip it to the locker. you should be able to pull up on the tail of your brake end and it will haul your second and automattically lock off. if this doesn't make sense i can try to draw it or something to explain it better. but i promise it works.
-aaron
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rastafarout
Feb 9, 2007, 9:43 PM
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Yeahh,i like to see that drawing.
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billcoe_
Feb 9, 2007, 11:08 PM
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Rasta, read what folks said and then do a search. Pass the Pitons Pete has had a total failure while hauling a load, claims thay are sh*t and will NEVER use one for hauling again. EVER.
Tom who posts on this site has had the same thing happen.
So it won't be me you are doing this to if thats one of the questions:-)
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epic_ed
Feb 9, 2007, 11:43 PM
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rastafarout wrote: Maybe i should restate. "Hauling" the second with mini traxion. Anybody?
Yeah -- It's a bad fuckin idea. Get it? Sweet mercy. How many different ways do how many different people need to say it. Everyone has already listed all of the negatives -- expensive, heavy, and uhhhhh..oh...NOT SAFE.
I'd go with a gri gri if you already own one and insist on using an auto locking device.
Ed
(This post was edited by epic_ed on Feb 9, 2007, 11:44 PM)
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rastafarout
Feb 10, 2007, 2:34 AM
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OK,GET IT.
SORRY.
BUTTT WHYYYYYYY THEEE HELLL AREEEEEE YOUUUUU SCREAMING??????
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mtnfr34k
Feb 12, 2007, 8:18 PM
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abtisme wrote: its really easy to set up a belay device that is it autoblock mode to haul the second. all you need is a prussik and a locker. set the prussik up as low as you can reach on the end that is going to your second. take the brake end and clip it to the locker. you should be able to pull up on the tail of your brake end and it will haul your second and automattically lock off. if this doesn't make sense i can try to draw it or something to explain it better. but i promise it works. -aaron
If I read your post correctly, you're trying to use the Reverso or ATC Guide as a auto-ratchet during the hauling in a 3:1 system. On paper, this looks wonderful. The Reverso/ATCG is already in place, making this a quick fix.
But last fall two friends and I spent a day at Mt. Erie, Washington, testing out some of these rescue ideas, including this one. Using this system, we discovered that the amount of force needed to raise the victim 1 meter without their assistance "felt" equal or greater to a 2:1 haul system. We agreed that a 3:1 built in this manner has so much friction built in - especially at the ratchet point (ATC/Reverso) - that most mechanical advantage is lost.
We concluded that it was only slightly slower, but easier on our arms - to "piggyback" a haul system onto the climbers strand, raise the victim 1 meter, and disconnect the haul system. The advantages were 1) the Reverso/ATCG could be used continuously as a belay/backup and 2) once built, the haul system left hanging from the anchor to be re-used if the climber needed further assistance.
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abtisme
Feb 12, 2007, 9:34 PM
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mtnfr34k wrote: abtisme wrote: its really easy to set up a belay device that is it autoblock mode to haul the second. all you need is a prussik and a locker. set the prussik up as low as you can reach on the end that is going to your second. take the brake end and clip it to the locker. you should be able to pull up on the tail of your brake end and it will haul your second and automattically lock off. if this doesn't make sense i can try to draw it or something to explain it better. but i promise it works. -aaron If I read your post correctly, you're trying to use the Reverso or ATC Guide as a auto-ratchet during the hauling in a 3:1 system. On paper, this looks wonderful. The Reverso/ATCG is already in place, making this a quick fix. But last fall two friends and I spent a day at Mt. Erie, Washington, testing out some of these rescue ideas, including this one. Using this system, we discovered that the amount of force needed to raise the victim 1 meter without their assistance "felt" equal or greater to a 2:1 haul system. We agreed that a 3:1 built in this manner has so much friction built in - especially at the ratchet point (ATC/Reverso) - that most mechanical advantage is lost. We concluded that it was only slightly slower, but easier on our arms - to "piggyback" a haul system onto the climbers strand, raise the victim 1 meter, and disconnect the haul system. The advantages were 1) the Reverso/ATCG could be used continuously as a belay/backup and 2) once built, the haul system left hanging from the anchor to be re-used if the climber needed further assistance.
i agree with you that this system has a lot of friction. but if you already have an atc-guide or reverso, why spend the extra money/time getting something that will only save you a little time and effort. the OP was talking about hauling a second who was having a hard time finishing the pitch. if the second even helped out a little bit by pushing off with their feet/hands, then this system works fine. it may not be the most efficient, but it serves the purpose.
-aaron
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mtnfr34k
Feb 12, 2007, 9:46 PM
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It didn't feel much different from "bro-hauling" to us. But we could have been weak!
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rastafarout
Feb 14, 2007, 12:42 AM
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Thank you guys!
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marckylove
Feb 15, 2007, 2:13 AM
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Honestly.. if you're having to "haul" your second up the pitch, it would probably be more enjoyable to get on an easier route. If your second is having trouble with one or two relativly short sections, you can usually put something together between climber and belayer. If not, see first suggestion. :)
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