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k2exp2010
Sep 29, 2001, 12:07 AM
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this question came up a few years ago while i was talking to fellow climbers during a session.
what would you do if your belayer dropped you? even just once. assuming it wasn't fatal of course, would you ever trust that belayer again?
a guy on another route next to me was telling me that his good friend wasn't paying attention and let him hit the ground. he wasn't too far up, but he did get banged up. he never let him belay him again...
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manboy
Sep 29, 2001, 12:12 AM
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[ This Message was edited by: manboy on 2001-10-05 21:33 ]
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decked
Sep 29, 2001, 1:29 AM
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no one can tell ya the answer to that one climbing = trust if ya dont trust em dont climb with em.
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catga86
Sep 29, 2001, 1:34 AM
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When I go to the gym, there are some people I trust and some people I don't trust. Trust is a must in this sport. I feel like we can't answer this question. Trust is something you build, so if they break your trust, you can always to try to rebuild it.
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rrrADAM
Sep 29, 2001, 3:36 AM
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After I kicked his ass, I'd let them belay me again. I became safer after doing CPR on a guy that fell 80 feet in 'The Gunks', no, it wasn't manboy the immortal. This guy did not survive. I learn from others' mistakes.
I know 2 people who have dropped climbers, one w/ serious injury, and they are NOW the safest and most attentive belayers I know. People learn.
rrrADAM
p.s. BEERANDBLOOD, remind me not to drop you bud.
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rck_climber
Sep 29, 2001, 3:51 AM
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Now, Beer, what if it's your most trusted climbing partner? What if there is a freak accident and he drops you? What then? Do you still lose complete faith and trust in him, despite the numerous falls he's held you before?
I ask, because it's actually the thought I'm struggling with personally. You're right, if you don't trust them, don't give them the chance to drop you....but what if it's your proven performer, your best friend and climbing partner for years and it's a freak accident, what then?
A question for myself extended to you.
Mick
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kagunkie
Sep 29, 2001, 3:54 AM
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manboy and everyone els!
ALWAYS have your belayer TIE INTO THE END of the rope! That way this loosing the end of the rope through the belay devise cant happen. That is a basic rule of belaying, something that should be tought the first day. Why wasnt your belayer tied in manboy?
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rck_climber
Sep 29, 2001, 4:05 AM
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I agree, just as my long-time partner and I are completely in sync when it comes to climbing. It's almost automatic, like a well-oiled machine....
but...
What if?
Mick
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rrrADAM
Sep 29, 2001, 4:06 AM
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Statisticle FACT...
20% of the people who fall 20 or more feet, DIE !!! (everyone, not only climbers)
rrrADAM
[ This Message was edited by: rrradam on 2001-09-28 21:07 ]
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rrrADAM
Sep 29, 2001, 4:11 AM
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Oh yea...
I posted an incident that happened recently out here in NC on 'Accidents and Close Calls. Learn from others' mistakes.' in the Climbing Injury... forum 'bout a guy who dropped his 2nd while doing multipitch. He was belaying him from a SINGLE anchor, it popped and he fell. That leader should be SHOT !!!
rrrADAM
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metoliusmunchkin
Sep 29, 2001, 4:22 AM
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It would ofcourse depend on the severity of the fall. If I only fell around ten feet, I think I can manage to trust that belayer again sometime. And for manboy, you ARE lucky to be alive. And 80+ foot fall, that's like amazing that you survived!
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sizzlechest
Sep 29, 2001, 4:46 AM
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My partner dropped me 50' to the deck belaying me with a gri gri ( apparently he paniced when i whipped and held the cam open)
he was an experienced climber who didn't really like the gri gri and hadn't really used it much. After landing flat on my back in a mud puddle I was given a new perspective, gravity sucks, and always no matter how much experience you have be familar with the equipement and always pay attention.
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kagunkie
Sep 29, 2001, 5:21 AM
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BB....Yes you are right tying into the end does not really effect the belay if your climbing a fourty foot cliff with a hundred and fifty foot rope, but nevertheless it is still standard procedure for both climbers to tie in. Manboys accident would have been avoided had his belayer been tied in. Good habits are learned through repetition and will make you a safer climber. I always make sure both ends are tied into by me and my partner. Its a matter of safe climbing habits. Of course there are exceptions but its a judgement call and its always wiser to play it safe. To lose the end of the rope is a crime, its negligent. Play it safe !
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kahuna3602
Sep 29, 2001, 8:24 AM
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I think it pays to be vigilant as a climber also. Make sure you don't have lots of slack, but still how can someone let 80 feet of rope go through an ATC or gri gri? I've been dropped once and I knew there was too much slack but was too intent on climbing to call him on it. I still climb with him but pay a lot more attention to his rope handling. Hopefully we've both learned from the mistake.
Oh and BTW my primary belayer IS a woman and I'm easily 50 pounds more than she. It has never been a problem.
[ This Message was edited by: kahuna3602 on 2001-09-29 01:26 ]
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graceauhk
Sep 29, 2001, 11:24 AM
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I'm a 110 lbs female climber and my partner is 170+ lbs male, we have no problem so far, but my partner was dropped by his friend with the same wt..
No matter how experienced you are both partners should practise safe climbing habits all times. One serious fall can kill!!! BTW can you trust a belayer you've just met?
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bart
Sep 29, 2001, 3:46 PM
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I haven't got a specific climbing partner, but some friends that climb with me one at a time. So if someone would drop me, I think I wouldn't climb with him anymore and go on with the other ones. By the way, I know someone in this situation. He had to revalidate for a long time and normally he shouldn't climb anymore, but he can't quit it. I've never seen him climbing with the guy that dropped him, but I don't know more about it.
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jds100
Sep 29, 2001, 4:31 PM
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The length of the fall is not the only factor in whether or not it results in serious consequences, so I would never say "only 10 feet"; if your on the 11th pitch and get dropped onto a ankle breaking ledge, you're going to have a new appreciation for how far 10 feet suddenly feels. And people have died from very short falls bouldering, too; it depends on how the climber falls. Even on rope, if it's a bad belay, the rope might not be there to prevent a head or neck injury.
I've got two primary partners, and unfortunately one of them far too easily gets into talking with other people, in the gym and at the crags. When he's belaying, I make sure that all the mechanics are right (knots in the ends of the rope, locked biner, stable belay stance, etc. etc.), and then remind him before I set off that I don't want him to talk to people while I'm climbing, lead or TR. I remind as much as I feel I need to while I'm climbing, too. Working a particularly hard route on TR, once, I just stopped and hung around until he realized I wasn't moving up, and I told him I was just waiting until he was through with his conversation so I could have his attention again. He got the message that day, but I still do all the reminding that I feel I need to do to be safe. I haven't been dropped, but I need to have that sense of a safe belay, to be able to push my limits on the climb and risk coming off.
Trust is about as subjective as the differences in my partners, but the system check still needs to be the same: the double and triple checks, the knots and biners and harnesses, any belay anchors, etc. etc.
I hate distractions, and that's one reason why I prefer NO DOGS out at the cliffs, at least not ones that need to be watched over.
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o0ocindyo0o
Sep 29, 2001, 7:42 PM
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I have never belayed outside before, and I don't know what you mean by tying in. Can someone explain it to me please?
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compclimber
Sep 29, 2001, 8:10 PM
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You tie into the rope as if you were going to climb. That way when the rope reaches its end it does not shoot through the belay device. (NOTE) This only works on climbs of at least 100 feet if you are using a 60 meter rope. If the climb is less than 100 feet your partener will deck (hit the ground) anyways because there is too much slack in the rope.
Are you still confused???
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lyn
Sep 30, 2001, 7:50 AM
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Being a femal climber and climbing with mostly guys who all out weigh me, I belay them with no problems. Yes I have been lifted off the ground but that is what a ground anchor is for. Even if you weigh the same you can still be lifted off the ground. so play it safe and tie in to something.
As for dropping someone I don't know about the rest of you but when I'm leading it is such a mental trip that if I knew my belayer had dropped someone I would not be able to climb at my best, not wanting to commit to the climb incase I fall. As far as I am concerned dropping someone once is one to many times
[ This Message was edited by: lyn on 2001-09-30 00:53 ]
[ This Message was edited by: lyn on 2001-09-30 00:56 ]
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orestes1724
Oct 14, 2001, 10:52 PM
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i went climbing yesterday and the group i was with switched routes with another group...the guy belaying me was with the other group and he wasent paying attention to me he was talking to a friend... i kept climbing but i had to keep telling him to pull up the slack. it was annoying. if he droped me i would still let him belay me but i would be scared that he would let me fall. i guess its how much trust you have for other people.
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camhead
Oct 14, 2001, 11:05 PM
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Last month I was doing a sport climb belayed by someone who had never climbed (nor belayed) before in his life. at the second bolt I put my weight on the rope just to see if he was paying attention, and I fell about ten feet before he caught me. I just told him to be more attentive, and proceeded up to the crux. At the crux, I just got a real bad feeling. It wasn't even a matter of me making the move or not, i just got some sort of bad vibe. I told the belayer "no offense, but oculd you lower me down?" He was cool with it, and I finished the climb later on with another belayer.
So, I guess I am saying, YES, always be sure that your belayer is attentive. If in doubt, don't use him (or her)!
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512
Oct 16, 2001, 5:16 AM
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I am impartial on this one. I have been dropped from about 30 ft and I still remember every detail (at least the ones I was awake for). I hit the ground hard enough to bounce and landed on my head after the bounce. Why do I still climb? It scared the S--- out me. He was an Eagle Scout just like my self who had had many years of previous experiance. It was an accedent of course but after I finnished kicking his ass I told him he would never belay me agian but he is not my most trusted friend either. For me it would depend on the circumstances of the situation.
512
SEAN
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froggy
Oct 17, 2001, 8:54 PM
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I know that when I climb with some one I trust I climb a lot better than when I am climbing with some one that I don't.. And if somebody dropped me - I would never trust their belay again.
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rck_climber
Oct 17, 2001, 10:44 PM
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A couple things to add...
First, As far as the weight issue...
If there is a large weight difference, the belayer should always anchor into something at the bottom so that if the larger person falls on a lead, they don't end up meeting in the middle - both all beat up from the trip. If you do that, you take all weight-related issues out of the equation.
Secondly,
Shadow hit on an important, valid point. Cross-talk between the climber and belayer is always important so that both know what is going on, but as mentioned, it also keeps the belayer actively engaged in the climb so that their mind doesn't wander. Even if it's talking about how far to the next bolt, or what they thought about that move or this move, it's imperative that you keep a good line of communication open - it may just save your life.
Mick
[ This Message was edited by: rck_climber on 2001-10-17 15:55 ]
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