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majid_sabet
May 27, 2007, 5:40 PM
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Last night, I was reading a 4 page report where a climber fell 140 feet. His belayer was using Gri Gri during belay however, his partner (The leader) was only 45+ feet above belay when he fell. According to my calculation, he should it been falling total of 90 feet plus his rope stretch of 20-35% of the original 45 feet but we got some 50 feet of extra rope. Adding another 20-35% stretch should put another 20 feet or so to total of 110 feet fall but not 140+ feet and there is no way a 45 feet of rope out gives you a 50 feet of stretch unless:
1- Belay did not catch the rope and had too much slack before the fall which no belayer leaves 30 feet of slack out.
2- Leader fell, pulled the belayer in to wall causing his Gri Gri (The caming device mechanism) to slam against the wall which somehow contributed to additional fall by releasing rope (similar to pressing on GG handle).
3- This morning after discussing this theory with couple of wall masters, they also mentioned they seen similar slamming where GG gets pinched in to wall and allows additional rope to by pass the GG .
4- To reduce the amount heat from RC flamers, I specifically like to get some inputs from highly experienced multi-pitch wall climbers who use GG during belay.
5- The Injured climber is fine and yes, HELEMT save his life.
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jakedatc
May 27, 2007, 6:14 PM
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In reply to: 5- The Injured climber is fine and yes, HELEMT save his life.
Is the report online.. if so post it or it's kinda hard to determine what else could have been the issue without.. ya know.. the actual details..
also... if the climber is fine.. didn't deck... how is this an accident exactly ? once again your post is bizarre and not very well written
(This post was edited by jakedatc on May 27, 2007, 7:06 PM)
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reno
May 27, 2007, 7:32 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: According to my calculation, he should it been falling total of 90 feet plus his rope stretch of 20-35% of the original 45 feet but we got some 50 feet of extra rope.
What ropes are you using that stretch 35%?
Justropes.com has a cord comparison chart, and none of the ropes there have an elongation of more than 12%.
The chart is fairly comprehensive, including PMI, Maxim, Mammut, Esprit, Edelrid, and Beal.
So, post up the name/model of the rope, including a link to the manufacturer's website that gives specs of "20-35%" stretch.
Oh, and post it HERE, in this thread. Don't send it to me as a PM, or I'll copy that PM here.
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jakedatc
May 27, 2007, 8:16 PM
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ya reno.. seems a bit much
i got this off the Mammut page about the rope i use.. infinity 9.5mm
ELONGATION WITH 80KG 6-8 %
ELONGATION AT 1ST DROP (FALL) 29%
so unless the guy had taken a massive whipper with it right out of the box.. with no hangs or anything.. majidiots numbers are as usual.. way off
maybe toss this to General since it doesn't seem to be an accident.. just a big whip
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reno
May 27, 2007, 8:28 PM
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A few more questions that need clarification:
In reply to: 1- Belay did not catch the rope and had too much slack before the fall which no belayer leaves 30 feet of slack out.
Who measured this "30 feet" of slack? Is it a guess?
In reply to: 2- Leader fell, pulled the belayer in to wall causing his Gri Gri (The caming device mechanism) to slam against the wall which somehow contributed to additional fall by releasing rope (similar to pressing on GG handle).
That is sheer speculation, not fact. Pressing on a Gri Gri handle does nothing. PULLING on it causes rope to run through it. Pressing does nothing.
In reply to: 3- This morning after discussing this theory with couple of wall masters, they also mentioned they seen similar slamming where GG gets pinched in to wall and allows additional rope to by pass the GG .
Who are these wall masters? And how can we get in touch with them? Certainly, as experts, they'd be willing to put their opinion out there for public scrutiny, no?
In reply to: 4- To reduce the amount heat from RC flamers, I specifically like to get some inputs from highly experienced multi-pitch wall climbers who use GG during belay.
Great. Again, who are these people? And did you give them the facts of the fall and let them draw their own conclusions, or did you say "This is my theory.... do you think it's possible?" and let them give a simple yes or no? Further, how many of these "wall experts" said "No, your theory is crap, and here's why...." and why didn't you post THAT here as well?
Finally, I thought you were some sort of expert climber/rope rescue guy. If so, why do you need to consult "experts" when you're one yourself?
In reply to: 5- The Injured climber is fine and yes, HELEMT save his life.
If he's fine, then this isn't an accident. It's a leader fall, and not worth further consideration/discussion.
And you don't know if the helmet saved his life or not.... again, you're SPECULATING, not stating facts.
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jakedatc
May 27, 2007, 8:35 PM
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Reno.. those were his "guesses" as to the cause of this mystery fall from a mystery report he didn't think was important enough info to post.. so he just wanted everyone to agree with him
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majid_sabet
May 27, 2007, 8:48 PM
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4- To reduce the amount heat from RC flamers, I specifically like to get some inputs from:
Highly experienced multi-pitch wall climbers who use GG during belay.
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reno
May 27, 2007, 8:52 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: 4- To reduce the amount heat from RC flamers, I specifically like to get some inputs from: Highly experienced multi-pitch wall climbers who use GG during belay.
So when people question you, you automatically consider them to be flaming, and ignore them?
How professional.
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jakedatc
May 27, 2007, 9:01 PM
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Then post the original report instead of only posting your opinions on what you've read..
how are "expert wall climbers" supposed to comment on random snippets of info that have questionable accuracy??
fucking noob
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martinheynert
May 27, 2007, 9:53 PM
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reno wrote: What ropes are you using that stretch 35%?
http://www.bealplanet.com/portail-2006/index.php?page=cordes_escalade&lang=us
and scroll to the Booster III section (38%).
This means the maximum elongation in the FIRST IMPACT of a norm (factor 1.75) fall. It does NOT MEAN the elongation in the very first fall of a brand new rope. Since climbing ropes are dynamic, a first impact (fall) occurs and is followed by a movement up and another movement down (2nd fall).
Since most falls are not such hard ones, you'll seldom experience this great amount of elongation.
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moose_droppings
May 27, 2007, 9:55 PM
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reno wrote: majid_sabet wrote: According to my calculation, he should it been falling total of 90 feet plus his rope stretch of 20-35% of the original 45 feet but we got some 50 feet of extra rope. What ropes are you using that stretch 35%?
The Sterling Marathon Pro has a dynamic elongation of 35.3% Many ropes have dynamic elongation around 30%.
As for his questions, I think he's just asking for some input on some theories as to why there was 140ft fall with only 45ft of rope out.
I don't own a grigri (never will either) so I won't try to haphazard a guess as to your ideas of what may have happened.
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majid_sabet
May 27, 2007, 10:00 PM
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Thanks moose
As I said, I am asking for inputs and not 10 gal of 91 oct gas to burn the site down.
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on May 27, 2007, 10:00 PM)
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robdotcalm
May 27, 2007, 10:17 PM
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MS:
You post many items of interest. This is not one of them. The issue is not gasoline but the reporting fundamentals: who, where, how and verification. Since you provide no reference for the accident, the most appropriate response is to ignore your report as imaginary until evidence to the contrary is provided, which I hope you do.
Cheers,
Rob.calm
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notch
May 27, 2007, 10:51 PM
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reno wrote: majid_sabet wrote: According to my calculation, he should it been falling total of 90 feet plus his rope stretch of 20-35% of the original 45 feet but we got some 50 feet of extra rope. What ropes are you using that stretch 35%? Justropes.com has a cord comparison chart, and none of the ropes there have an elongation of more than 12%.
Reno,
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the chart you're referencing referring to static elongation? I'm fairly certain that dynamic elongations see rope stretch of +30% fairly frequently.
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rocknice2
May 27, 2007, 11:44 PM
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This isn't all that hard to figure out. Measurements in rockclimbing aren't always exact. Maybe it was 47 feet off the belay, a few feet of slack, 32% stretch, a few feet of slippage and shazam 140+++ of fall. Plus who actually went out and measured the fall. Have you never combined 2 x 110 foot pitches with a 60 meter[200ft.] rope. How can this be.
Last weekend I saw one guy fall 20 feet. He was 2 feet over his last bolt.
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potreroed
May 27, 2007, 11:45 PM
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Moose, never say never.
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tradrenn
May 28, 2007, 12:30 AM
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Reno: You might want to look some more into "dynamic elongation"
and
Mr. Moderator
Don't ever call me a n00b again.
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ryanb
May 28, 2007, 1:03 AM
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reno wrote: A few more questions that need clarification: In reply to: That is sheer speculation, not fact. Pressing on a Gri Gri handle does nothing. PULLING on it causes rope to run through it. Pressing does nothing. Pressing on the base of the gri gri handle near where it is attached to the cam when it is in its retracted position prevents the cam from caming into the locked position. When lead belaying with a gri gri it is common to press or squeeze here to facilitate the rapid feading of slack. If the belayer is inattentive or can't see the leader this can prevent the device from camming shut/locking immediately in the event of a fall. It is also possible for the device to be pulled up into the rock/first piece in a way that prevents it from locking. A seattle area climber took a ground fall while ice climbing and being belayed with a gir gri on a skinny rope. Anecdotal evidence suggests the rope was icy. Be careful out there everyone.
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reno
May 28, 2007, 1:45 AM
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tradrenn wrote: Reno: You might want to look some more into "dynamic elongation"
OK, that doesn't answer my question, but it's worth reading.
In reply to: and Mr. Moderator Don't ever call me a n00b again.
Who called you a n00b? And why are you so upset about it? And who are you to tell people what they can and can't say?
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benj
May 28, 2007, 2:26 AM
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Reno,
Yes pressing on the handle doesn't feed rope automatically. But if the climber has fallen and the grigri gets pulled into the wall, or more commonly into a quickdraw, the fact that the device isn't locked will facilitate rapid rope feeding.
A better question to all of this is what kind of a$$hole climbs 45 feet above his belay without putting in any gear? Thats the kind of $hit that will make me belay someone off of a different anchor.
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kriso9tails
May 28, 2007, 3:01 AM
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benj wrote: A better question to all of this is what kind of a$$hole climbs 45 feet above his belay without putting in any gear? Thats the kind of $hit that will make me belay someone off of a different anchor.
So it's not just me wondering about that then?
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reno
May 28, 2007, 3:29 AM
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benj wrote: Reno, Yes pressing on the handle doesn't feed rope automatically. But if the climber has fallen and the grigri gets pulled into the wall, or more commonly into a quickdraw, the fact that the device isn't locked will facilitate rapid rope feeding.
Benj:
I get what you're saying, but....
This assumes that the belayer is forcibly held into the wall, in the exact position that puts pressure on the fulcrum of the Gri Gri, in such a manner that it allows rope to pay out, and ignores the probability that said belayer will not.... for lack of a better term.... "bounce" off the wall, thus allowing aforementioned Gri Gri to lock.
Pretty big assumption, IMHO.
(This post was edited by reno on May 28, 2007, 3:32 AM)
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majid_sabet
May 28, 2007, 4:25 AM
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I am glade you guys are educating people round here on elongation and not me however, I am only interested to know about GG and slamming in to wall.
I still want your input on this subject, and nothing else.
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on May 28, 2007, 4:35 AM)
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jakedatc
May 28, 2007, 4:40 AM
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In reply to: I am only interested to know about GG and slamming in to wall.
Then you need to post the report so that folks can actually read what happened.. was this aiding.. trad.. multipitch.. what kinda anchor etc..
when your questions suck you won't get good answers
1. post the report
2. or STFU
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