One of the things that I reccomend for my students is that they lead something within their limits every time they go out and then set a top rope on whatever hard climb they are working.

How the hell do you know if you're going like a thread without reading it? I'd like in on that technology.

I don't really get why people need to practice this.

If you WANT to climb harder, sooner or later you'll fall. if you are afraid to fall, you either won't get better, or your progress will be much slower than it could be.

Don't practice. Do it. Go climb a vertical to overhanging sport climb, and refuse to say take. Instruct your belayer not to take even if you say it. Repeat until you whip.

you shouldn't be taking on a sport climb anyway unless you're working it.

if you are afraid to fall, you either won't get better, or your progress will be much slower than it could be.

Maybe I'm reading your wrong, but I'd think that the experimental route to determining whether or not falls will flip you upside down is a hideously bad idea.

Practice falls are supposed to be about teaching your guts that nothing bad will happen when you fall when your head has already figured that out with relative certainty.

I don't like them b/c the gut never forgets about the relative part of what constitutes relative certainty. Everytime you fall your safety system is non-redundant.

When you get to the point that you are trying to learn how to manage tricky and potentially more dangerous falls (like long slab falls and penji's), the practice itself is going to be riskier. I honestly don't know if the risk:benefit analysis of practicing for dicey falls ends up being more dangerous than just taking as few of them as possible.

If you know that it is totaly safe but you still can't commit to the move then maby its time to take a short test fall. Often this builds confidence and you can go back up and send. Just be certain that you have all your ducks in a row before you take that test fall. To actually go out and practice risky falls is just stoooopid. Much better to practice not falling in risky situations.

Well, I suppose it comes down to what is meant by "with adequate back-ups in place." Still, I tend to agree with you. Practice falling on trad gear is pretty stupid.

Curt

The only thing that differs between our opinions is that I don't feel anyone should be leading without mastering the objective dangers, gear placement, and risk assessment issues.

I'd just like to say thank you to Blueeyed Climber for finally putting this issue to rest. FINALLY, I can sleep tonight...

This is a foolish statement. Show me ONE beginning leader who has mastered objective dangers, gear placement and risk assessment. Beginning leaders should have miles and miles of easy terrain. Easy terrain that they have NO business falling on. It takes years of actually leading to have mastered what you say a beginner should master.

Josh

Practice falls let someone work up to that distance. The fear in people's minds could be enough that the long fall is dreaded. The practice falls let them reduce and limit that fear.

What if your belayer isn't used to catching sport falls? Do you want there first catch to be a significant whipper? Why not make it smaller whippers first?

Finally, you said it yourself.
practice falls let you progress or progress faster if your fear is holding you back

The word mastered is subjectively defined. I could take it one step further and claim that only 5% of all climbers have these things mastered. The only thing you and I are doing here is changing the conditions on what 'mastering' the skill is.

There is nothing in that list that couldn't be learned on the ground, following, or through discussions of scenarios. Leading does not have some magical power of teaching those issues. If anything the leader is distracted from those things, and the leader has more trouble learning everything at once. The leader should have a thorough understanding of them prior to being put in a situation where their lives depend on a correct evaluation.

I am recommending the beginning leader know how to evaluate situations for safety. You on the other hand are recommending they start free-soloing for a few years. Maybe the only thing foolish is that I dignify your response with a post.

This is the only post in this entire thread that's worth it's salt. Good replies Microbarn.

I like my fear. [snip] My fear of falling keeps me on the rock

This is the only post in this entire thread that's worth it's salt. Good replies Microbarn.

The most sensible approach to climbing falls and/or falling practice that I'm aware of is Arno Ilgner's Warrior's Way course. Naturally, a lot of people have misconceptions about this. Arno does NOT say that all falls are safe or that you should approach falling casually; he does NOT say beginning climbers should do falling practice (at least not without supervision); and he does NOT advocate this for trad lead falls unless you're very proficient with protection and have plenty of backup.

If you climb long enough and/or hard enough, sooner or later you're going to be in a potential fall situation; I believe Arno's position is that you should be prepared -- physically and mentally -- when that situation comes up. In physical terms, you need to know how to use your body so you minimize the possibility of injury (this relates to granite_grrl's concern about flipping upside down). In mental terms, you evaluate the fall consequences and proceed based on that evaluation. If you're in a no-fall situation (your protection is suspect; you're climbing slab; you could deck or hit a ledge; etc.), you either back off or continue climbing knowing that you're taking a risk. If you're in a safe fall situation (bomber protection or a bolt; no obstacles to hit; overhanging rock; etc.), you know the risk is minimal and there's less reason to fear a fall.

As far as I'm concerned, the best way to know how to realistically evaluate fall consequences is to practice. And the best way to learn how to practice falling is to have expert supervision (like Arno's), at least to begin with, rather than just go out there and do it.

If you think your fear will keep you from falling, sooner or later you're going to get a really unpleasant surprise.

I agree!

JL

It is my humble opinion that climbing to a position with the intent of falling puts you in a different mental state than someone who is going for it and falling.

I like my fear. I wouldn't call myself a beginner, but i still have a strong fear of falling. I don't see this as and issue that needs to be fixed. I lead trad up to 5.10a and have only taken a couple very short lead falls.

My fear of falling keeps me on the rock in situations where had I been top roping I would have come off 5 minutes ago. Adrenaline induced climbing pushes me well beyond my normal limits. This results in a better workout and hopefully makes me a stronger climber.

As I see it, the only issue that my fear of falling causes is me to sometimes over protect climbs when it would be easier and quicker to climb on.

Two weeks ago while talking to a good friend of mine who has some big wall first ascent to his name told me the same exact thing.

You need to have that fear otherwise you become ignorant.

Obviously, the objective of falling practice is not to train yourself to intend to fall. The objective is to build a physical memory of how to react in a fall situation so it will be automatic when you do fall. I suspect the number of climbers who are born with that ability is probably about the same as the number of people who can ride a bicycle the first time without falling off.

JL