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paintinhaler
Sep 28, 2002, 2:34 PM
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You should not be bolting if your a beginner. Bolting is not going to make you a better climber.
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k9rocko
Sep 28, 2002, 10:06 PM
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I would never chop bolts, unless it was a safety issue. But, since I have $2,000.00 USD in climbing gear... and no claw hammer, I can't exactly be the crag-cop enforcing bolting ethics.
I agree with removing senseless bolts, but I would never cut bolts from the middle section of a climb. Imagine you take a friend to the climb you did last week. All you needed was twelve draws. You rack up and begin the climb. Suddenly, you realize that you should have brought your trad rack. The Editor of Climbing Magazine edited your route to eliminate unnecessary bolts !!!!
Even worse if you get to the ledge where you plan to belay / rappel and there are no anchors.
Just my two cents.
[ This Message was edited by: k9rocko on 2002-09-28 15:11 ]
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blazesod
Sep 29, 2002, 5:38 AM
Post #53 of 68
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Mother nature has given us enough crags and boulders to climb without the need for bolts let alone unsafe bolts. Chop the bolts, water the trees, respect the rock and maybe lure a swarm of yellow jackets to the schmucks car while he argues with you about the whole ordeal.
Dave
"What have they done to the Earth?
What have they done to our fair sister?
Ravanged and plundered, rip her and bit her.
Stuck her with knives in the sight of the dawn and they tied her with fences and dragged her down!" -Jim Morrison
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laplaya
Sep 29, 2002, 10:18 PM
Post #54 of 68
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I say pee in the public pool!!!!! it is a favorite past-time of mine
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andy_lemon
Oct 1, 2002, 7:35 PM
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If you do end up removing the bolts remember to put them in a nice box and give them back to the rightful owners... otherwise you are stealing their property. Kind of like taking someone elses tree stand that is on public land.
Andy
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drector
Oct 1, 2002, 8:28 PM
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Can any lawyer tell us if things that are abandoned become salvagable? I know that sunken stuff in the ocean is considered salvagable if the original owner doesn't try to get it back.
You may be within your rights to keep the hangers but it would show that you are extra ethical if you gave them back. As for the bolts, throw the left-overs out.
Dave
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gakin
Oct 2, 2002, 3:20 PM
Post #57 of 68
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If the only safe way to achor into the climb is by the bolts, then I would have to agree with them being there IF they are placed in a safe manner. It sounds like they were not placed correctly. If that is the case, I say take them out, and send the gear back to the gentleman that placed them, along with an explination as to why you had removed them.
Now everybody play nice!
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nbrown
Oct 3, 2002, 1:22 AM
Post #58 of 68
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Chop them. Those guys aren't the first ascent team so they have no right even if they feel it's a safety issue. If you can't climb it in the same style as the first ascentionist then stay off of it.
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melonhead
Oct 3, 2002, 2:16 AM
Post #59 of 68
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Seriously. CHOP THEM! Then solo the route in front of them.
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wu-tang
Deleted
Oct 3, 2002, 5:48 PM
Post #60 of 68
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maybe if you chop the bolts, you should replace them with a solid stainless steel anchor system. then- no more sliging trees and trampling the top of the cliff causing erosion.
bolt wars are stupid and should have died in the 1980's. lets spend less time bickering about ethics and more time trying to actually climb.
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rustybuttonhead
Oct 4, 2002, 1:19 AM
Post #61 of 68
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CHOP THOSE f---ERS
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bighigaz
Oct 4, 2002, 3:07 AM
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Hey, if it can be climbed safely without it, what need is there for any bolt at all? Furthermore, if the bolt is placed unsafely, it should DEFINATELY be removed, so as not to endanger the life of any unsuspecting climbers. My recommendation is simply to do what you have to to make it safe for everyone else...
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daggerx
Oct 4, 2002, 2:13 PM
Post #63 of 68
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CHOP THEM then rub in those jerks face if you see them again!!
DaggerX
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rockhippie
Oct 5, 2002, 6:54 PM
Post #64 of 68
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leave them there and just don't use them
or chop them , I'm undecided?
don't ask me I know nothing , or do I? I don't know maybe I do, or do I??? hmmmmm?
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slider
Oct 6, 2002, 2:38 AM
Post #65 of 68
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Next time you see those two check there shoe size, then look for a copy of ."Rock Climbing For The Total Idiot" Maybe I'm wrong?????
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gorgeclimber
Oct 7, 2002, 4:40 PM
Post #66 of 68
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No question in my mind--you chop it. Whether you justify it based on violation of ethics (not their route to modify), or based on the fact that the extra bolt wasn't necessary doesn't matter. Sure, you could be nice & send them an email letting them know you're doing it and why.
I live in the Gorge. Mind telling me (private email is fine) where the climbing area is?
Here's a related question: the anchors at the top of Classic Crack at Broughton need work. One of them is an old 1/4" bolt, and you can see where it's old neighbor was sheared off and a new 3/8" bolt was added. Seems to me the old 1/4" should be replaced (filling the existing hole, of course). What are the ethics with making that repair?
Gordon
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billcoe_
Oct 7, 2002, 9:01 PM
Post #67 of 68
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Gorgeclimber: Gordon, by all means immediatly replace any and all 1/4 inch bolts with 3/8 stainless bolts and stainless hangers. Just so you know, at one time the SMC 1/4 stainless hangers were recalled (after a couple fell apart with body weight), and recently, Ed Leeper asked that all of his 1/4 hangers be replaced. He points out that althought they had far superior strength when new, some are deveolping stress fractures with age, and in fact, some other company had made a cheap knock off which was not as strong as the Leeper. Far as that goes, I was out climbing with Steve Strauch (lots of the first ascents around here in the 60's and 70's) talking about Gandolfs out at Broughtons (best route out there IMO - North face). He was surprised that no one replaced the little knIfeblade he had smacked up into the roof at the crux. It's there now, BRAND NEW BOLT...finally after what 35 years. It would have been a hell of a fall to fall and pull that pin. I suspect someone did pull it that way, but never heard. Everybody is happy not to die by falling onto a knifeblade, at least Steve and I would be, I can't speak for everybody. Just so you know, a freind of mine went and replaced my anchor/rappell setup on Boardwalk out at Beacon. I had a solid 1" angle smacked into a crack with a 3/8" bolt (steel, this was put in 15 years ago before I was a stainless believer) there was regular webbing with a couple of alum. rap rings through it. He put in sport rap chains with a new 3/8 stainless bolt. I was out there Saturday climbing some easy stuff in the rain and damn was it nice to clip that great pro after slithering up the wet mossy rock!!! He chained up the route to the right called rythem method (if lead on natural pro, or raindance if you clip the bolts. Turns out I'd bagged the FA years ago and forgot it. Showed up 2 years ago and bolted it thinking it would be a great line. It is, it's awesome although I'm a little embarrased over retro-bolting one of my own first ascents. I almost can't believe anybody could do that with out the bolts, but I did. I'm damn glad they're there now. Did that route too Saturday-wet.
The route at Rocky Butte, as I mentioned earlier is Bluebird.
But I'm done talking about it, seems everybody around here has real real strong views on it. New folks generally want to leave it for ease of clipping, but the old timers want to chop any and all new bolts, and there are many there. I won't have to do a thing as there's folks who feel much stronger than I on this. But I would lean towards preserving these routes in their origonal condition, sans bolts, like they were for the first 30 years or so.
Anyway, I'm done talking about it. Finished. Replace all 1/4 bolts please.
Regards all:
Bill
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ajkclay
Oct 8, 2002, 3:34 AM
Post #68 of 68
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These guys had no right to put any bolts on, or near the climb without:
a) Consulting the first ascenscionist if available. or
b) Widely consulting with the locals, which they obviously didn't do if you've been in the area for 20+ years.
It is the responsibility of climbers to respect the tradition in which climbs have been done originally. If there is no threat to trees at the top, and the one bolt was fine, CHOP CHOP CHOP.
If these jerks can't do a climb the way it's been done historically, they shouldn't drag it down to their level, and ruin it for every one else that can.
[ This Message was edited by: ajkclay on 2002-10-07 20:35 ]
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