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reg
Jun 26, 2007, 3:48 PM
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dingus wrote: This thread is SO east coast! DMT
somehow i know what your saying! and i don't like it - even though i know the op and most who are agreeing are kids - and the whole thing is stupid and sophmoric .
is there a climbing reference in this thread?
op, et'al: grow TF up. cops can't protect you. they can't find your bike rack.
they can enforce laws. i've had cuffs on a number of times and don't like it one bit and will step lightly in the future to avoid any confrontation with them or the system. one of um saves your ass one day and you'll sing ah different tune - ya think?
(This post was edited by reg on Jun 26, 2007, 3:50 PM)
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jcrew
Jun 26, 2007, 3:50 PM
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dingus wrote: This thread is SO east coast! DMT
trophy!!!
Most street cops are mere hit men for forces they don't even comprehend. It's "the ones that set them up" that need a stern rebuke.
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scotchie
Jun 26, 2007, 3:53 PM
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The nice thing about democracy is that if you get enough people together, you can change the rules. Go to your local city council meeting (or whoever controls access). Be a PITA.
Jobs with authority attract both good and bad people. But if everybody followed the rules, there would be no need for law enforcement.
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reg
Jun 26, 2007, 3:58 PM
Post #29 of 47
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scotchie wrote: The nice thing about democracy is that if you get enough people together, you can change the rules. Go to your local city council meeting (or whoever controls access). Be a PITA. Jobs with authority attract both good and bad people. But if everybody followed the rules, there would be no need for law enforcement.
with all due respect - that's a "pie in the sky" belief. "if your vote really counted, they wouldn't let you do it".
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markc
Jun 26, 2007, 4:11 PM
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tradmanclimbs wrote: I have my rack stolen, $1,000 felony and the cop tells you to get used to it we can't do anything about it, they break into my car last winter and stole our money, cops could care less.
What exactly would you like the police to do in either case? Your gear could be on some other climber's rack, in the local pawn shop, or up on eBay. It could be in the dumpster behind the Quick-E-Mart, as the thief realized it's going to be a hassle to move. The majority of markings people put on gear are easily removed. Even if your rack is found, how do the police know it's your gear? With cash, you're even more SOL. You're best off putting in a report and filing your insurance claim.
Do you expect the police to print your car? Step up patrols of areas with multiple break-ins (which means they aren't patrolling somewhere else)? If there are no witnesses, do you really think investing man-hours is going to yield anything? Your best bet is looking out for yourself. It's a bitch to protect your stuff while on the road, but I do my best not to leave anything visible in the car, and I never leave cash or my wallet.
That said, what any of that has to do with getting a citation for trespassing is beyond me.
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diophantus
Jun 26, 2007, 4:27 PM
Post #31 of 47
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reg wrote: scotchie wrote: The nice thing about democracy is that if you get enough people together, you can change the rules. Go to your local city council meeting (or whoever controls access). Be a PITA. Jobs with authority attract both good and bad people. But if everybody followed the rules, there would be no need for law enforcement. with all due respect - that's a "pie in the sky" belief. "if your vote really counted, they wouldn't let you do it".
Your vote counts, just some people's votes count more than others, that's all.
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tradmanclimbs
Jun 26, 2007, 6:30 PM
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Yes i do expect them to work on crimes against people VS BS hasseling of people/ taxation through LAW. it would be pretty FCN easy to catch the aholes who do smash and grabbs at trail heads if you put your mind to it. decoy climber van and a video camera. follow the fckers right back to their meth house and get a doubble play out of it. instead they sit in their car all day getting fat hasseling mororists. park one of those flashing speed indicators at your speed trap for a few days and go catch some actual thiefs!! and yes printing the car is not a bad idea. you might pull up a repete offender and put the scumbag back in jail. I got robbed in NH, they have like 15 murders a year so its not like they have a huge caseload of major crimes, why not solve some of the crimes that afect the people. think of the polotics of it. You get good headlines for catching real scumbags and protecting the public VS lingering animostity and scorn for hasseling and taxing the public through tickiting. I got pulled over a few years ago by some TOOL who screamed and yelled at us, frothing at the mouth and FCKING DROOLING LIKE a RABID DOG. the FCKN Moron yells at me D YOU KNOW WHAT THE SPEEDLIMIT IS HERE?? I am like No Sir, TOOL- SPEED LIMIT IS 35MPH then looks down at hand held radar gun, YOU WRE DOING 40MPH IN A35 !!! The Pscyo frothed off at the mouth and yelled at us for another 5 min before letting me go with a warning. I was about ready to say just give me the fcking tickit so i can see you in court WTF these guys want respect lay off the micky mouse BS and catch real criminals.
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climbsomething
Jun 26, 2007, 7:05 PM
Post #33 of 47
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tradmanclimbs wrote: Yes i do expect them to work on crimes against people VS BS hasseling of people/ taxation through LAW. it would be pretty FCN easy to catch the aholes who do smash and grabbs at trail heads if you put your mind to it. decoy climber van and a video camera. follow the fckers right back to their meth house and get a doubble play out of it. instead they sit in their car all day getting fat hasseling mororists. park one of those flashing speed indicators at your speed trap for a few days and go catch some actual thiefs!! and yes printing the car is not a bad idea. you might pull up a repete offender and put the scumbag back in jail. I got robbed in NH, they have like 15 murders a year so its not like they have a huge caseload of major crimes, why not solve some of the crimes that afect the people. think of the polotics of it. You get good headlines for catching real scumbags and protecting the public VS lingering animostity and scorn for hasseling and taxing the public through tickiting. I got pulled over a few years ago by some TOOL who screamed and yelled at us, frothing at the mouth and FCKING DROOLING LIKE a RABID DOG. the FCKN Moron yells at me D YOU KNOW WHAT THE SPEEDLIMIT IS HERE?? I am like No Sir, TOOL- SPEED LIMIT IS 35MPH then looks down at hand held radar gun, YOU WRE DOING 40MPH IN A35 !!! The Pscyo frothed off at the mouth and yelled at us for another 5 min before letting me go with a warning. I was about ready to say just give me the fcking tickit so i can see you in court WTF these guys want respect lay off the micky mouse BS and catch real criminals.
In my line of work, I often see angry, irrational people who "froth at the mouth like rabid dogs." They wail at me about how they don't like cops but they waste NO TIME calling them when they think somebody is hassling them. Fact.
I'm a square to begin with and I work with cops almost daily, so I know I'm biased (or maybe just informed, crazy thing that). But consider this:
Do you know who Warren Jeffs is? He was pulled over for speeding. Do you know who Timothy McVeigh was? Pulled over for a busted taillight- or maybe it was a license plate violation, something like that. And countless criminals are caught for similar traffic violations who have warrants or are otherwise shady. In my Mayberry town some guy was stopped for road rage and it turned out he was an absconding sex offender.
So just STFU and let the cop give you your lil ticket.
(This post was edited by climbsomething on Jun 26, 2007, 7:06 PM)
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tradmanclimbs
Jun 26, 2007, 7:31 PM
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Trafic stops do catch criminals but you need to have class. Loseing your cool and yelling at a clean polite person doing 5mph over the speedlimit is not class. its fcn scarey when the guy with the badge and gun is not in control of a really simple situation. there are good cops and there are aholes. too bad the aholes ruin the social situation for the good cops. We had a tool here in VT bust a guy on the interstate for DWI. the guy was NOT intoxicated he was haveing a stroke and trying to ask for help. Tools response was to assume he was drunk and buckle him up. total lack of class and people skills. I picked up a deaf guy hitch hikeing a few years ago . he had just got out of jail for trying to communicate with a Tool who assumed he was intoxicated. WTF. I knew within 2 or 3 seconds of the encounter that the kid was deaf and dumb. I pulled out my note pad and we passed notes back and forth for 100miles. Cops need a class in how not to be stuck in the cop culture.
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ltking
Jun 26, 2007, 8:07 PM
Post #35 of 47
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bent_gate wrote: gerrybo wrote: I have been swimming in that hole for years and never had any troubles. Were you drinking? Cops love to bust people with their shirts off. (ever watch 'Cops'?) 
its a fact i have yet to see an episode where ayone is fully clothed
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diophantus
Jun 26, 2007, 8:08 PM
Post #36 of 47
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tradmanclimbs wrote: Trafic stops do catch criminals but you need to have class. Loseing your cool and yelling at a clean polite person doing 5mph over the speedlimit is not class. its fcn scarey when the guy with the badge and gun is not in control of a really simple situation. there are good cops and there are aholes. too bad the aholes ruin the social situation for the good cops. We had a tool here in VT bust a guy on the interstate for DWI. the guy was NOT intoxicated he was haveing a stroke and trying to ask for help. Tools response was to assume he was drunk and buckle him up. total lack of class and people skills. I picked up a deaf guy hitch hikeing a few years ago . he had just got out of jail for trying to communicate with a Tool who assumed he was intoxicated. WTF. I knew within 2 or 3 seconds of the encounter that the kid was deaf and dumb. I pulled out my note pad and we passed notes back and forth for 100miles. Cops need a class in how not to be stuck in the cop culture.
I knew a deaf, dumb, and blind kid; he sure knew how to play a mean pinball.
(This post was edited by diophantus on Jun 26, 2007, 8:09 PM)
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dan2see
Jun 26, 2007, 10:56 PM
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Come on, Rossy, you have not told us the circumstances your story.
"Trespassing" is the name of the offense, but nine times out of ten, that's not what did, it's the result of your encounter.
All you RC posters on this thread, you've written a lot of words about whether cops are good or bad, about whether you like cops or not, about being responsible for breaking the law ... you've even thrown cultural values into the discussion. I don't know if Potts is a falls or a pond.
But Rossy still hasn't told us what went on!
You should know about law and cops:
1. Laws are made in the city by people you don't know, for reasons you don't know.
2. Cops enforce some of those laws, the ones that are easy to enforce, and this has little to do with the law being good or bad.
Trespassing in particular is never initiated by cops on their own. First of all, trespassing is never an offense until somebody says to. I repeat, trespassing is never an offense by itself. What you did might have been "offensive" or maybe not.
Rossy's post did not give us any clues as to what started this "offensive" conduct. I'll bet it's one of two options:
1. you really did something stupid and deserve the $220 fine,
or
2. who-ever told those cops what to do is a mean, selfish, slacker who won't take the responsibility of managing his own property.
So, Rossy, keep us posted about how your case goes.
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diophantus
Jun 27, 2007, 3:08 PM
Post #38 of 47
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dan2see wrote: Trespassing in particular is never initiated by cops on their own. First of all, trespassing is never an offense until somebody says to. I repeat, trespassing is never an offense by itself. What you did might have been "offensive" or maybe not.
It depends on the jurisdiction, some places it is a misdemeanor other places it's not. In Texas it is legal to use deadly force against trespassers after dark, so you probably should know the law of the area before you start jumping fences.
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bigjonnyc
Jun 27, 2007, 5:13 PM
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I believe what Dan2see meant was that cops don't go out looking for trespassers on their own. Cops respond to calls from civilians requesting that they go find the trespassers. No one can argue that it was against the law, or he'd never have gotten a ticket in the first place
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diophantus
Jun 27, 2007, 6:02 PM
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bigjonnyc wrote: I believe what Dan2see meant was that cops don't go out looking for trespassers on their own. Cops respond to calls from civilians requesting that they go find the trespassers. No one can argue that it was against the law, or he'd never have gotten a ticket in the first place
I would agree with you except he wrote:
dan2see wrote: I repeat, trespassing is never an offense by itself.
which is clearly wrong, and to me his argument is similar to saying "it's only illegal if you get caught."
Most of the time someone probably calls the cops to report a trespasser but that isn't always the case. A cop stopped and questioned my brother because he didn't recognize my brothers car which was parked in our parents driveway, and was the only one there at the time. The cop never met my parents or brother, he just drove by the house every day and remembered which cars belonged there.
dan2see wrote: 2. who-ever told those cops what to do is a mean, selfish, slacker who won't take the responsibility of managing his own property.
It isn't the responsibility of the property owner to patrol his or her property and fend off would-be trespassers. As long as his/her property is clearly posted he/she is hardly being a mean, selfish, slacker. The act of marking his/her property is taking responsibility to managing his/her property. And if it wasn't posted then the OP should fight his ticket.
A few years ago someone broke into my car while it was parked on private property. The cops didn't come to me and ask to write up a report, I called them. Does that make me a mean, selfish, slacker too?
Whatever, I'm just bored today.
(This post was edited by diophantus on Jun 27, 2007, 6:08 PM)
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dan2see
Jun 28, 2007, 4:58 AM
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We still don't know the circumstances of Rossy's case, we don't know why the cops were there, and we don't know when/if/who started this "trespass" thing anyway.
So it's all hypothetical.
So I'll tell you what the rule is, in Canada:
1. If you are on somebody's property, the owner (or his manager) can tell you to leave. He doesn't need a reason, it's strictly his arbitrary privilege.
2. If you simply leave, there is no offense, you are free to go.
3. If you refuse to leave (the reason does not matter) then the owner can call the police.
4. The police will lay a "trespass" charge, and they may or may not arrest you.
5. If the police arrest you, they may throw you in jail. Bail would be easy, and a simple trial might get scheduled for next year.
So staying hypothetical, I guess the following:
1. The land owner had a serious, ongoing problem with unwanted visitors.
2. He hired the police service to patrol his property.
3. When the cops confronted Rossy, he probably mouthed off about he was only having fun, and they should leave him alone.
4. Rather than arrest Rossy, they handed him a ticket.
It still sucks.
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bent_gate
Jun 28, 2007, 5:11 AM
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jammer wrote: We all have stories of when a cop goes bad, but if there is a sign that says no trespassing, and you trespass, you earned the ticket. Other then that, I agree with most of these posts. Allow me to suggest that when this happens again, tell them of all the drug dealers, bank robbers, kidnappers, and rapist you know and he'll most likely let you off with a warning ... 
It's like we've all seen on TV. If you want to beat the rap of whatever you are charged with, you have to be willing to give up someone higher up. So as suggested, if you know of any drug dealers, robbers or kidnappers, offer to wear a wire and go in and get them busted. It will get you out of your trespassing charge with full immunity! 
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medicus
Jun 28, 2007, 7:17 AM
Post #43 of 47
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rossyy007 wrote: So im sitting here looking at my $220 trespassing fine from Pots falls. Im wondering if it was all worth it, and i guess it wasnt but damn that was some cool climbing. i am also thinking about how much i HATE cops. they truly are the lowest pieces of shit on the planet. instead of busting meth labs or breaking up drug rings they would rather bust me and buddies for swimming in a damn creek. Final verdict, awesome climbing but very high risk. o and fuck all cops.
If all the people want to jump on a pedastool and be complete dicks about saying "fuck all cops," they can do it, but if I had seen this in the soap box thread, I would have avoided it and not even bothered.
It pisses me off that people completely hate all cops like this... and frankly, until you have seen their world, you couldn't understand. Crap happens, and yes there are bad cops... but that can be said about EVERY occupation out there.
To the OP, you were trespassing and you knew it... so deal with the problem you created for yourself. Calling them "the lowest pieces of shit on the planet" makes me hope that someday you are in drastic need for a cop and instead you get severely injured because one wasn't around when you actually needed one... especially if they were all busy doing better things like busting meth labs than saving you.
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acarp
Jun 28, 2007, 5:57 PM
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... or eating dough nuts
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thomasribiere
Jun 28, 2007, 6:13 PM
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rossyy007 wrote: So im sitting here looking at my $220 trespassing fine from Pots falls. Im wondering if it was all worth it, and i guess it wasnt but damn that was some cool climbing. i am also thinking about how much i HATE cops. they truly are the lowest pieces of shit on the planet. instead of busting meth labs or breaking up drug rings they would rather bust me and buddies for swimming in a damn creek. Final verdict, awesome climbing but very high risk. o and fuck all cops.
Though you ought not have trespassed the rules, I can't understand that you can be fined $220 just for swimming! $220!!! that's ridiculous! I hope the swim was great.
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rossyy007
Jun 29, 2007, 3:09 AM
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Wow just looked in my email for the first time in a while and saw this insane thread that has ensued from my small caustic vent about police and fines. So here are the details surrounding the event, we have been swimming in this hole for years but just recently started to climb it. We have done so without incident until this past outing. This time though it was different cop came before we even had taken our shirts off, he busted us for trespassing and that was that. We had NO BEER i dont believe in mixing beer with high risk activities, and we dont litter. Ironically all of us who were fined are Eagle Scouts and are probably the most respectful people that you could want at the falls. As for this thread, God damn there are some really hateful border line violent people on this site. as someone mentioned before its surprising to see that within the climbing community. Also many were very preachy in the ideals about trespassing, yeh its wrong but we have all done it at some point im sure, and if no good for you. There is so much i would like to talk about... As for my general disrespect for the better side of the law, maybe this stems from the fact that every other day u see that another officer has stolen money, or hidden evidence, or beaten and innocent, or my favorite used drugs that were taken from crime scenes. these are the reasons that i have no respect for cops, 90 percent of them are on power trips and go unchecked by the public bc we dont want to be arrested. today it seems that we would be better off with a boondock saints style vigilantly justice system instead of our never ending appeals- beurocratic bull shit trials system that allows murderers to walk. to wrap things up and comment on some other posts that really chapped my ass. Yes i fuckin top rope, deal with it you have to start some where, i guess some of the responders think it would have been wiser for me to jump into trad haaha. and as i said pots is really stratified rock but its not shitty choss, pots is just a nice place to spend a day (or was). thats it for me im out, hope i never run into some of the assholes on this thread who were quick to judge and even quicker to spew hatred, thanks to all the supporters.
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bent_gate
Jun 29, 2007, 4:48 AM
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So I am reading the Regional Page on the access for the area. It says that parking is sensitive, and that if you don't have a car, that no one would even know you were there. Just curious, did you park there and do you think the cop saw the car?
Pot's Falls RC.com page wrote: Once on the dirt road the falls are on your left. Parking is VERY sensative. I would not park anywhere near the falls. see below: the water itself is public property however as you will see the access to it is posted hardcore. your best bet is to park somewhere on else other than Pots Falls road and walk in. people have been fined here however if there are no cars near the area its very hard to tell anyone is down there. just use your head and you should be able to stay out of trouble.
It says the water itself is public. So it sounds like it's safe if they catch you in the water. Are the climbs then on private property? You may want to check the property lines at the county courthouse (or they may be online). Usually property owners only own the land up the 100 year flood line of a public river. And if you know were these lines are, you may be able to figure out how you can access and use the area without getting in trouble. Or fight your ticket depending on where you were spotted.
It agree, it is a beautiful area:
(This post was edited by bent_gate on Jun 29, 2007, 4:54 AM)
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