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hishopper
Jul 6, 2007, 9:51 PM
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I'm not going to give all the details in hopes of avoiding pages of flames and corrections, b/c I know most of the many mistakes I made.... but here's what I did today 
Took my family (5 kids) and couple of their friends climbing at a local 45' top-roped climb - their first time, two new ropes, new location. Took almost an hour to build a good anchor as there was only sketchy vegetation available at the top so I used a second rope to extend the anchor to 3 good points farther up. Two locking D's draped just over the ledge, and the face was inverted from there (overhung).
Now here's where the mistakes began.. I had flaked the rope into a bag (rescue style) as this is how I like to keep my rope. I fished around for the middle mark, and attached it through the two locking D's and launched the bag. Roughly 45' climb, 60m rope, no prob. I couldn't see over the edge, so I asked if the rope was on the ground. Yes was the reply from the patient newbs below. "Both ends?" - "Um yeah, er .. no - almost... one is!". Certain that one huge bundle must be laying on a branch or ledge at the bottom I snapped in and stepped off. No problem. I rap'd down about 20' and felt one end of the rope pass into my brake hand!
Apparently Mammut puts warning marks (identicle to center marks) on the ends of their ropes. Those marks, just fyi, are a very poor place to snap in to rappel.
I only had about a foot out of the belay device, so after hanging around for a while assessing self-rescue and praying that I wouldn't end up broken at my kids feet I swang over to a crack to the right and grabbed on, letting the rope pass... fairly intense warm up, I'll say.
(This post was edited by hishopper on Jul 11, 2007, 3:33 AM)
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summerprophet
Jul 6, 2007, 9:56 PM
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Well it looks like you learned a (potentially) painful lesson without to much in the way of injuries.
It is something all of us have gone through at one time or another. Be glad it is done and out of the way, and be glad that nobody was hurt. I imagine that knoting the ends of the ropes and flaking them out prior to throwing them will now become more prevalent in your mind.
Incidently, I custom mark my rope at 6m (much in the same way petzl does. I know to be cautious when I rap past this mark. (mine are not identical to the center mark though.
Good to know you are OK.
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bent_gate
Jul 6, 2007, 10:05 PM
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Glad it's a happy ending!
Thanks for posting. Hopefully this will add to people's caution, and things to look for before they repel. It would be worthwhile to know if there is a different type of mark at the middle and near the ends of Petzl ropes, or if they are exactly the same (I hope not!) Is there any way to distinguish the two marks?
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majid_sabet
Jul 6, 2007, 10:10 PM
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send an email to petzl
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hishopper
Jul 7, 2007, 2:42 AM
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There is now my friend! No, the marks were exactly the same. Not in any way to say they did anything wrong (it were my stupidity), but I do really think different colors would be prudent if they're going to make multiple marks. The way I look at, their job is to make a safe rope (structurally) and all the engineering therein... marking, knotting, cleaning, storing, etc are all the climbers job. It's nice of them to make the middle mark, but I'm not even sure they should do that...
bent_gate wrote: Glad it's a happy ending! Thanks for posting. Hopefully this will add to people's caution, and things to look for before they repel. It would be worthwhile to know if there is a different type of mark at the middle and near the ends of Petzl ropes, or if they are exactly the same (I hope not!) Is there any way to distinguish the two marks? |
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time2clmb
Jul 7, 2007, 2:53 AM
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So it was established that only one side of the rope was on the ground yet you blindly went ahead on the rap. Good god man, watch for the ends and don't assume anything.
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iamthewallress
Jul 7, 2007, 3:02 AM
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hishopper wrote: Apparently Petzl puts warning marks (identicle to center marks) on the ends of their ropes. Those marks, just fyi, are a very poor place to snap in to rappel.
Wow. I'm glad you're OK.
My partner and I wondered out loud on more than one occasion when using a similar rope when we'd hear about an accident due to the incredibly stupid marking scheme.
I had one of these ropes and found the middle/end mark abiguity so lame that I've rarely used the rope. It especially sucks that there is so much warning for the end of the rope that you can't necessarily see the end of the rope when you've got the end mark in your hand. I was so afraid a friend who was unaware of the scheme might take the "middle mark" for granted.
Yes, I know that in a perfect world we don't blindly trust middle marks, but having confusing ones is worse than not having one at all, IMO. If the end marks were red or doubled or something unique it would be so much better.
Edit...I'll (almost) spare everyone the lecture about always watching your ends.
(This post was edited by iamthewallress on Jul 7, 2007, 3:03 AM)
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jt512
Jul 7, 2007, 3:26 AM
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summerprophet wrote: Well it looks like you learned a (potentially) painful lesson without to much in the way of injuries. It is something all of us have gone through at one time or another.
Uh, no. Actually, it is not.
Jay
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jt512
Jul 7, 2007, 3:30 AM
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Thanks for the heads-up about the stupid marking scheme.
On a somewhat related note, I like to check the accuracy of the factory middle mark when I buy a new rope.
Jay
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bent_gate
Jul 7, 2007, 5:09 AM
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FYI, I sent the following E-mail to Petzl to see what they say.
In an E-mail wrote: Subject: Middle and End rope markings on your Petzl ropes From: <bent_gate@rockclimbing.com> To: info@petzl.com Date: Friday, July 6, 2007 10:02:42 PM I wanted to let you know about a potential problem that some climbers have had with your rope regarding the Rope Markings on the Middle and the End of your ropes. Because the markings on the ends and the middle are the same, there has been a situation where a climber reached into his pile of rope and pulled out an 'end' instead of the 'middle'. After clipping it into a biner and tossing the rope, he made the very serious saftey mistake of NOT visually looking to make sure the ends of his rope were on the ground. He began to rappel(abseil) and after only several feet he fortunately felt one end of the rope moving into his hand and was able to avert rappelling off the end of the short side of the rope! He posted his story here: http://www.rockclimbing.com/...rum.cgi?post=1625549 Obviously this is human/user error, but after thinking about his story I thought I would notify you and offer some other suggestions. The end marks seem designed to alert the climber that they are approaching the end of their rope. So they are a significant distance from the end of the rope to do so. As a result, it can be very hard to tell if this black mark is for the middle or for the end when it is in a pile, and even when he rope is hung over an edge as it frequently is, the real end is out of sight. In situations where it is dark, or with headlamps, it may be impossible to distinguish. And ultimately it seems this marking scheme may be adding more confusion than helping. So I would like to suggest the following ideas in the order of simplest/least cost to more elaborate/more cost: 1) Simply eliminate the end markings since they are the same as the middle (and may cause more problems then they help) 2) Keep the end marks but differentiate them with a different pattern, such as hash marks (dotted line) 3) Make the end marks both a different pattern, and a different color if available, such as red. (in the dark the red alone might not be seen as a different color, so the hash mark pattern is still more important) I have been using your products for years: Harnesses, Helmet, Biners. As a happy user, I wanted to let you know of this potential situation with the rope markings so you could re-evaluate if it is the best marking choice for your new product. Thanks. -Brad |
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iknowfear
Jul 7, 2007, 9:01 AM
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my rope has two marks in the middle (the exact middle is between the marks)
and a mark ca. 5 m before each end.
works well.
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flint
Jul 7, 2007, 9:51 AM
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Is there an easy, cheap way to mark your middle and ends at home, I have looked everywhere (short of ordering online) for a blue water marker. I know the sharpies are dangerous, I have used tape, which is nice for night raps cause i can feel it pass, but it moves and gums up, I do use end nots but would like a simple middle marker.
Thanks
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iknowfear
Jul 7, 2007, 10:04 AM
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I used the beal rope marker.
note: it does make the rope a bit stiffer...
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socalclimber
Jul 7, 2007, 12:38 PM
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I will never understand why people rely on middle marks without checking that both ends are equal. Some companies use tape to mark their middles, after some use, that tape can slip down the rope rendering them useless.
Another example, using one of my partnerrs ropes, set up a rappel, saw the middle mark, then proceeded to check the ends. Sure enough they were uneven. VERY UNEVEN. Turns out he had to chop about 15 feet off one end due to damage.
ALWAYS CHECK THE DAMN ENDS BEFORE YOU COMMIT. There is way to much reliance on middle marks, taped ends etc these days.
Glad to hear the OP is ok!
(This post was edited by socalclimber on Jul 7, 2007, 12:47 PM)
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notapplicable
Jul 7, 2007, 9:20 PM
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socalclimber wrote: ALWAYS CHECK THE DAMN ENDS BEFORE YOU COMMIT. There is way to much reliance on middle marks, taped ends etc these days.
Although I agree that when possible you should verify that both ends of the rope are even, that is not always possible. I have done many a rap where I couldnt see the ends of my rope before starting out and the middle mark allowed me to set up a safe rap with (relative) assurance that my rope ends were even.
A middle mark is just a tool and if used properly it can make your life easier and safer.
In this particular case the rope belonged to the OP and he should have known his gear well enough to avoid this mistake but I guess that is why we call them mistakes.
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socalclimber
Jul 7, 2007, 9:24 PM
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You are going to have a difficult time explaining to me why you could not determine if your rope ends were even BEFORE you tossed the rope. Sorry, but you if you believe what you wrote above, then you have a lot to learn. Determining if the rope ends aer even BEFORE you toss the lines is not a big deal. Rain, shine, dark or what ever.
I gave you TWO HUGE CLUES. Think about it. Now being able to determine if the ends reach the ground or the next station is a different situation entirely.
(This post was edited by socalclimber on Jul 7, 2007, 9:32 PM)
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cintune
Jul 7, 2007, 10:26 PM
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Other options: Find the midpoint and tie a quick overhand bight in it before you put it away each time. Takes a minute or two but you should inspect the rope after every use anyway. Or use a needle and some contrasty colored thread to weave your own middle mark around the sheath. It won't hurt anything. Or, once you've got the midpoint, coil the ends of the rope on your gear loops and feed them out as you rap down, instead of blindly throwing them.
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robdotcalm
Jul 7, 2007, 10:58 PM
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You've been chastised enough, so I won't repeat the obvious about checking the rope or putting knots in the end. But let me add something else that is obvious: get a bi-colored rope. The last rope I bought is bi-patterned. I'll not be going back to a mono-colored rope.
r.c
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Godisgood
Jul 7, 2007, 11:20 PM
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first time i went top roping outside ...since my rope didnt have a mid mark, we put one end through the biner and threaded it out, both at the same time so we could have it at the middle mark.
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notapplicable
Jul 7, 2007, 11:24 PM
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Yeah, your right. I should have made my statement a little more clearly.
The only way I know to confirm that the ends of my rope are even without trying to wearing the sheath off the old rag by handleing its full length on every rap is to visualy inspect. When I'm pulling my rope on a multi pitch rap its much more efficient to run the rope through the next anchor and pull it untill you hit the middle mark and let the ends fall. If you can visualy verify that the ends arent tangled or hung up you should but there is no way I am going to put the ends together and handle the entire length of the rope to find the middle and then toss it.
So yes I should have qualified my origionl post by saying that I'm unwilling to take greater pains to verify that my rope ends are even (when using a rope I am familiar with) than to use the middle mark and attempt to visualy inspect the conditions of the ends.
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socalclimber
Jul 8, 2007, 12:55 AM
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Yeah, that makes more sense. The vast majority of multi-pitch raps I've done require two ropes, so finding the "middle" isn't an issue. Cool deal!
Probably the best thing here for the OP is that he clearly understands his mistake, and I'll bet he isn't likely to repeat it.
Cheers
Robert
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jt512
Jul 8, 2007, 5:02 AM
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notapplicable wrote: socalclimber wrote: ALWAYS CHECK THE DAMN ENDS BEFORE YOU COMMIT. There is way to much reliance on middle marks, taped ends etc these days. Although I agree that when possible you should verify that both ends of the rope are even, that is not always possible.
It is ALWAYS possible to determine that you are rapping off the middle of the rope, and that hence the ends are even. Middle marks are merely a convenience, and do not take the place of physically determining the middle of the rope.
Is there any other sport, besides rock climbing, whose participants are becoming less and less knowledgeable with time?
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Jul 8, 2007, 5:07 AM)
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notapplicable
Jul 8, 2007, 11:39 AM
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Physical verification (putting the ends together and handleing the entire length of the cord is such a protracted process that I wasnt considering it when I made the statement. I was speaking only of visual verification and I should have been more clear as already explained three posts back from this one.
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dingus
Jul 8, 2007, 1:10 PM
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I don't and haven't used middle marks on my ropes, not ever really. It is a source of friction with my partners and I.
I recently needed to do a single rope rap down a new line. My partners were elsewhere, working a different route. When I tossed the rope ends I could not confirm the ends were on the ground, no matter the vantage.
I walked down, as it was possible. The ends were down, just.
I don't routinely tie knots in the ends of my rap ropes. In fact I would only tie knots in the end if I had to rap, I couldn't see the ends and the wind wasn't blowing much.
Rapping down the side of El Cap NO WAY I'd tie knots in the ends of the ropes, that's a recipe for a rescue imo.
Being sure. Having a backup plan in mind. Working it through mentally, ahead of time....
DMT
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