|
hipclimber
Jul 11, 2007, 2:11 PM
Post #1 of 38
(5796 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 11, 2007
Posts: 44
|
What is the best training I can do to raise my onsight level?
Should I be focusing on raising my redpoint? Endurance?..
What Kind of training can I do>??
|
|
|
|
|
8flood8
Jul 11, 2007, 2:25 PM
Post #2 of 38
(5778 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 10, 2004
Posts: 1436
|
look up "ARC"
|
|
|
|
|
bent_gate
Jul 11, 2007, 2:26 PM
Post #3 of 38
(5777 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 1, 2004
Posts: 2620
|
It really depends at what level you are currently climbing at. There are big differences between training for 5.10 and for 5.12
So having no information whatsoever, I will suggest:
1) Loose 10 pounds
2) Take these:
|
|
|
|
|
zealotnoob
Jul 11, 2007, 2:47 PM
Post #4 of 38
(5760 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 2, 2006
Posts: 525
|
Books and limited experience lend me to think you should focus on endurance (Arcing, 4x4s...), rest finding (make a move, find least exerting positions, make a move, etc), down-climbing and on-sight climbing. Focus less, on hard bouldering/red-pointing--but do not eliminate, as to maintain muscle recruitment. Consider periodizing your regiment, with emphasis on the endurance phase. May the more experience weigh-in on this thought...
|
|
|
|
|
hipclimber
Jul 11, 2007, 4:13 PM
Post #5 of 38
(5735 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 11, 2007
Posts: 44
|
I can onsight any 5.10,
5.11A I can clean after 2-3 attempts
5.11B clean after 6-10 attempts
5.11C working on it. Can never clean, always take a falls at the crux. I am not sure if this is in part endurance/strength. (i don't boulder much, repoint V3+)
|
|
|
|
|
overlord
Jul 11, 2007, 5:01 PM
Post #6 of 38
(5692 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 25, 2002
Posts: 14120
|
well, if you want to improve your onsight abilities, here are some general pointers:
a) work on your route reading skills
b) work on your tactitcs
c) increase your power endurance
a and b are pretty much connected. you need to be able to decide what tactics you are going to use before you leave the ground; where the obvious rests are, where to clip from, wheres the likely crux, what looks to be the best sequence, plus a few alternate plans. you also need to learn how to make the most of every rest that comes your way.
c is training oriented. having lots of power endurance gives you more time to figure things out when youre already on the route, and that is usually the difference between sending and falling. for me personally the best way to train power endurance is 4x4s, but you want to mix it up somewhat with climbing longish, continous routes with enough rest inbetween.
|
|
|
|
|
hipclimber
Jul 11, 2007, 5:43 PM
Post #7 of 38
(5649 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 11, 2007
Posts: 44
|
Good Pointers, I don't do any of that right now. Except for (c). Makes Sense, thanks
|
|
|
|
|
ryanb
Jul 11, 2007, 5:59 PM
Post #8 of 38
(5630 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 4, 2004
Posts: 832
|
I spent three months this fall/winter training endurance by traversing. Started by doing three 20 minute traverses with 10 minutes rest 5 times a week and worked my way up to three 1 hour traverses with 20-30 minutes rest 6 times a week. Pain in the ass to get through but good results, probably do it again this winter.
That and learning to really use the rests/find good place to place from (i mostly trad climb).
|
|
|
|
|
bandycoot
Jul 11, 2007, 6:26 PM
Post #9 of 38
(5607 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 25, 2002
Posts: 2028
|
ryanb wrote: I spent three months this fall/winter training endurance by traversing. Started by doing three 20 minute traverses with 10 minutes rest 5 times a week and worked my way up to three 1 hour traverses with 20-30 minutes rest 6 times a week. Pain in the ass to get through but good results, probably do it again this winter. That and learning to really use the rests/find good place to place from (i mostly trad climb).
So, you're putting in about 24 hours of training time a week and you're scratching the 5.10 level. Don't you see something wrong with that? Traversing alone won't get you very far. You have to mix endurance, AND power, AND types of climbing. How you do that is up to you, but pure traversing will keep you from progressing. You never acquire the skills to move UP because you're always moving sideways. My opinion on how to increase onsight ability:
Volume of climbing is good.
Try different types of rock.
Try different types of routes (slab to hand crack to offwidth to corner to face etc.)
Work on power and endurance.
Volume of climbing is good.
Work on your lead head.
Want it more.
Volume of climbing is good.
Josh
|
|
|
|
|
artm
Jul 11, 2007, 6:29 PM
Post #10 of 38
(5602 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 22, 2001
Posts: 17990
|
bandycoot wrote: ryanb wrote: I spent three months this fall/winter training endurance by traversing. Started by doing three 20 minute traverses with 10 minutes rest 5 times a week and worked my way up to three 1 hour traverses with 20-30 minutes rest 6 times a week. Pain in the ass to get through but good results, probably do it again this winter. That and learning to really use the rests/find good place to place from (i mostly trad climb). So, you're putting in about 24 hours of training time a week and you're scratching the 5.10 level. Don't you see something wrong with that? Traversing alone won't get you very far. You have to mix endurance, AND power, AND types of climbing. How you do that is up to you, but pure traversing will keep you from progressing. You never acquire the skills to move UP because you're always moving sideways. My opinion on how to increase onsight ability: Volume of climbing is good. Try different types of rock. Try different types of routes (slab to hand crack to offwidth to corner to face etc.) Work on power and endurance. Volume of climbing is good. Work on your lead head. Want it more. Volume of climbing is good. Josh
|
|
|
|
|
bent_gate
Jul 12, 2007, 12:55 AM
Post #11 of 38
(5536 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 1, 2004
Posts: 2620
|
Since you are talking about raising your Onsight Level, and not your redpoint level, I think <overlord> said it all. I would also add that you should try to have at least 20 minutes of good warm-up before trying your Onsight route. And make sure you spend up to 20 minutes on your back on the ground, working every move in your mind; clip, rest, and fallback. Don't start until you have every move worked out in your mind.
|
|
|
|
|
fluxus
Jul 12, 2007, 2:19 AM
Post #12 of 38
(5497 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 3, 2003
Posts: 947
|
onsight level can be more difficult to raise than redpoint level because of it is so demanding in terms of both fitness and cognitive skills. At least on a red point you know the moves.
To be a good on sight climber you need to be good at reading a route from the ground and also good at improvising if you read something incorrectly. You need to know when to stop and rest and when to move faster to get through a section. You need to be good at down climbing, you need to be a fairly bold, what if you run out of draws or don't have the right peice of pro? can you leap frog your gear? deal with a more serious run out? etc etc etc
the only way to get those skills is to practice. You mentioned your red point levels but that does not mean much. you need to define your current onsight base level. This is the grade at which you get the onsight 80% or more of the time. Then create an onsight route pyramid with your base level defining the bottom level of the pyramid and work up from there. The pyramid should have a variety of route types and types of rock.
In term of fitness I like to think of it this way. Having a high local aerobic endurance level and well developed anaerobic endurance are both important for high end onsight climbing. But the starting place for a climber at your level should be to raise your local aerobic endurance level and your stamina. this is done by combining workouts such as ARCing on routes with Continuous Intensity Repetitions on routes. (CIR) a 1 - 3 month period emphasizing local aerobic endurance and stamina in conjunction with a heavy emphasis on completing an onsight pyramid, will lead to significant gains. I am assuming of course that you can climb 3 days per week and have supportive partners.
Any questions on the terms I've used here can be cleared up with a search of the training forum.
|
|
|
|
|
ryanb
Jul 12, 2007, 4:34 AM
Post #13 of 38
(5447 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 4, 2004
Posts: 832
|
bandycoot wrote: ryanb wrote: I spent three months this fall/winter training endurance by traversing. Started by doing three 20 minute traverses with 10 minutes rest 5 times a week and worked my way up to three 1 hour traverses with 20-30 minutes rest 6 times a week. Pain in the ass to get through but good results, probably do it again this winter. That and learning to really use the rests/find good place to place from (i mostly trad climb). So, you're putting in about 24 hours of training time a week and you're scratching the 5.10 level. Don't you see something wrong with that? Traversing alone won't get you very far. You have to mix endurance, AND power, AND types of climbing. How you do that is up to you, but pure traversing will keep you from progressing. You never acquire the skills to move UP because you're always moving sideways. My opinion on how to increase onsight ability: Volume of climbing is good. Try different types of rock. Try different types of routes (slab to hand crack to offwidth to corner to face etc.) Work on power and endurance. Volume of climbing is good. Work on your lead head. Want it more. Volume of climbing is good. Josh
I was way out of shape after a year or two of takeing it easy and focusing on endurance training for a few months worked wonders for me. My bouldering on site level jumped 3 v grades and i haven't not on sited a 5.10 since January when I blew a foot on the last bit of Illusion Dweller. I don't really climb for difficulty but my speed and confidence on long routes in the mountains has increased drastically. I also on sited a 1000 foot 5.9+ in light snow, wearing a pack which was a big step for me in terms of commitment.
Power and power endurance are important but I still think that the average climber will benefit the most from a few months of focused endurance training. It gives ample time to work on technique (provided you can find an area with enough diversity) The risk of injury is low, it makes it easy to loose weight and it develops the tendon strength necessary for more intense training.
Lately I have been doing tr laps to failure on 5.11's at the Index town walls, working to jump my "will not fall on" level up into the 11's. It beats traversing but it is hard to get out there often enough to log the kind of mileage I like to log so I still spend a lot of afternoons at the UW rock (best fake concrete cracks in the world). There was an interview with peter croft floating around where he advised this kind of training in combination with a couple of steep runs/hikes a week.
Also, I don't know where you got "barley scratching at 5.10" I've been leading pretty solidly at that grade or a bit harder for about 10 years and i have only started training or climbing inside in the last few. If your ever in the cascades and looking to barely scratch your way up some routes drop me a line.
Ryan
(This post was edited by ryanb on Jul 12, 2007, 6:50 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
fracture
Jul 12, 2007, 6:54 AM
Post #14 of 38
(5383 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 13, 2003
Posts: 1814
|
Some of the easiest and quickest early gains in my onsighting came from putting some effort into learning not to let go or give up after misreading a sequence. Basically, what fluxus said: downclimbing skills are crucial. And moreover, you need to stay calm when you mess a sequence up and need to reverse moves. If you feel like you tense up (or give up and let go) when you mess up a sequence (or get too pumped), working on that should be probably be pretty high priority. You will have much lower success rate while onsighting if you are forcing yourself to do everything exactly right.
I also think I made a lot of initial progress by consciously trying to look ahead to find good pairs of holds, instead of just a logical next hold for whichever hand I feel like moving. Not only does this seem to decrease how frequently I get the beta mixed up and have to downclimb, it also means I'll be in a good position to alternate hands while thinking about the next section. This reduces the risk of getting into a situation where you have to frantically search for a hold while the clock is running out on one arm (often leading to panicky matches on small holds to try to shake).
If you find that you get tired of it or bored after a certain point and just want the attempt to be over (I used to have this problem, but in my case it was/is probably due to the fact that I don't find difficult onsighting particularly fun, and only really bother with it because I think it can make me better at redpointing): some ARC training may help you feel comfortable on the rock for longer periods of time (which onsighting can often demand) while simultaneously giving you local endurance benefits that can't hurt either.
And to reiterate what overlord was getting at: the pre-climbing tactical side of things is very important. Try to be maximally analytical before attempting a difficult onsight while you are still on the ground (and have no timelimit). Give yourself the best possible chances of success. In my experience, thinking up a couple alternative sequences for likely cruxes really pays off, when it is possible. You don't need any long-term training to get benefits from that (although you will get better at reading sequences with practice): just actually take the time to do it, and you'll probably be making higher quality onsight attempts the same day.
(This post was edited by fracture on Jul 12, 2007, 7:02 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
rc_vinay
Jul 12, 2007, 9:47 AM
Post #15 of 38
(5345 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 8, 2005
Posts: 154
|
well u can play games in gym like pointer and add-on to improve.
|
|
|
|
|
rockprodigy
Jul 12, 2007, 5:55 PM
Post #16 of 38
(5262 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 10, 2002
Posts: 1540
|
I think that very little of anything you do in a gym will help your onsighting, especially with the grades you're climbing. I suggest you lead as many routes outside as possible. Try to do 20 pitches a day.
|
|
|
|
|
konaboy
Jul 12, 2007, 7:03 PM
Post #18 of 38
(5217 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 2, 2006
Posts: 36
|
hipclimber wrote: What is the best training I can do to raise my onsight level? Should I be focusing on raising my redpoint? Endurance?.. What Kind of training can I do>??
Head over to podclimber.com and check out Eric Horst's Training clip #21 in the training section. The summary: 'Learn what to consider in selecting routes to maximize learning, improve on-sight ability, and succeed at projecting.'
|
|
|
|
|
fluxus
Jul 12, 2007, 7:42 PM
Post #19 of 38
(5199 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 3, 2003
Posts: 947
|
rc_vinay wrote: rockprodigy wrote: Try to do 20 pitches a day. but you can always do double in gym of what you can do on rock (if you have liberty to set routes and change holds) 
True but you need to keep in mind that climbing in the gym and climbing outdoors provide VERY different challenges when it comes to important cognitive aspects of onsight climbing. Specifically, the challange of recognizing different visual stimilus as hand and foot holds. At that level climbing indoors and outdoors have very little to do with one another.
|
|
|
|
|
jto
Jul 13, 2007, 11:02 AM
Post #20 of 38
(5153 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 18, 2004
Posts: 272
|
Iīm with fluxus on this subject very strongly. If donīt you have those cool Entreprise or other sculpted walls where you canīt see hand and footholds so fast the indoor game is veeeery different from the real rock.
My top 10 for better onsighting:
1. Climb a lot onsight (!!!) especially on the same rock type youīre gonna encounter on your trip. Slabs, verts, overhangs, dihedrals, corners, roofs...everything.
2. Climb a lot onsight (!!!) and spend a lot of time watching and analyzing the route from below and really trying your best to solve the route as much beforehand as possible. Pacing, rests, clips etc.
3. Train your aerobic and anaerobic endurance according to your time spent on onsighting the routes. If you climb a route onsight indoors in 5 minutes thatīs nothing compared to your efforts outdoors where you can easily spend half an hour on a route. The 2-3 minute sets in letīs say 4x4 help only little your AE.
So do a lot long sets varying the grade and really think what kind of stuff you are training for. Time makes all the difference. My longest AE workout for especially onsighting has been 8 sets of 8-15 minutes with equal pauses. I do shorter sets too but in the future Iīm going to add some longer AE sets too. Thatīs 20-30 minutes of hard labour Iīm talking about :) Also the time spent on holds has to be the same as on your onsights. That means no rushing most of the time.
4. Climb a lot onsight (!!!!!) (just you donīt forget).
5. Stick game and other no-info-beforehand -workouts indoors are ok for onsight pacing and route reading skills.
6. Concentrate a lot on your movement skills when ARCing.
7. Downclimbing hard routes has been very good for control and self confidence too.
8. Watching other people climb and trying to figure out what theyīre gonna do next or what was the reason they fell is great for learning.
9. Climb a lot onsight!!!!!
10. Do a lot mental training so you feel confident on hard stuff and can concentrate on climbing and right moves and not how far down the protection is.
Redpoint numbers really mean surprisingly little when the case is onsighting. Quote common really is if you can redpoint 3-4 grades above your onsight level in letīs say five tries. I know a lot of these kinda people. Then again I know a guy who does 8a redpointing but the onsight level is about 7a. He just really sucks at reading the route and making quick decisions but loves to work harder routes tens of tries.
|
|
|
|
|
crackmd
Jul 14, 2007, 10:13 PM
Post #21 of 38
(5079 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 24, 2002
Posts: 444
|
Hey Josh
I agree with everything you said except for what you said about traversing. My days in San Diego were characterized by having almost no time to get on real rock since it required at least a 2-hr drive to get anywhere off any value. My saving grace (and the only thing that kept me strong) was my obscession with the Ocean Beach Pump Wall. Since it was easily accessible and I could go there for a few hours it became my main climbing venue. In my mind, there is no better endurance workout than this traverse. In addition to being enduro, it was a great core workout and required the ability to do some sketch (no fall) moves while real pumped. At some point I stopped getting pumped and my limiting factor was my feet hurting. This took over a year to get to this point and seven continuous laps which was my record. I guess that should have told me that I should focus my training elsewhere, but I still want to do ten continuous laps. As far as I know, no one else has done more than four. Give it a try sometime.
Hope things are well in SD. If you come through Flagstaff let me know and I'll show you the local crags. You'd dig Paradise Forks.
|
|
|
|
|
bandycoot
Jul 16, 2007, 8:00 AM
Post #22 of 38
(4987 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 25, 2002
Posts: 2028
|
Mike, you were probably already a very talented climber when you started traversing. I'm assuming I'm responding to a beginner. Traversing is an integral part of my traning as well. I'll try to check out Pump Wall soon! :)
Josh
|
|
|
|
|
ghisino
Jul 18, 2007, 4:03 PM
Post #23 of 38
(4860 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 12, 2005
Posts: 249
|
I've read a lot of good suggestions here, but I didn't notice a very simple training method that can be very effective...
simply go to the crag and pick up routes you can climb almost effortless either because you know them very well or because they are below your onsight limit (eg 5.11a's you know perfectly and 5.9c/d onsight).
Focus on :
a)climbing quite fast, almost as fast as you can, and don't stop if there's no obvious rest.
b)gripping holds with the least possible force
c)using momentum : your movement on the rock should be a continuous flow rather than a sequence of single moves.
this works because it develops efficient climbing habits that ain't spontaneous when climbing at your limit, expecially onsighting.
On onsights a lot of people stop at almost every move to look for the next hold and don't move up if they don't see anything...this means that they'll never reach hidden holds and that they'll get pumped without getting higher!
There are times where you can't see the next hold unless you move up from the previous one. If you keep climbing without thinking too much you have good chances of seeing it, if you start asking yourself "where's the next hold?" you're more likely to fall because you get too pumped...
More than that, expecially on onsights it is spontaneous to grip holds more then necessary, which destroys your endurance...
Another good thing is that this kind of training builds a sort of climbing moves vocabulary : eg you've done so many knee drops that when you need to make one on a new route, you don't stop to think where to put your feet and how to twist your body, you simply do the move.
To be a good onsight climber you have to make climbing moves as obvious as walking. Do you consciously think where to put your feet while walking on a trail? If you do it, does it take so long?
Other than that, work a lot on tactics : if you are high up in the middle of a difficult section try to keep climbing. Climb slow if you feel like you're missing some holds, but never stop until you get to a pair of holds on which you can at least shake out.
While you rest, look up for the next holds, as far as you can, and think about a possible sequence.
Then start climbing again : try the first moves and if they look too hard downclimb to the rest...you can climb-downclimb even 5 times before working out the right sequence or knowing the first moves so well that you can climb them without getting to pumped to go higher up!
Then, when you finally you get past the very first moves after a rest, go for it and stop thinking, just climb...
Least, if you really can't help but stop on bad holds, always try to alternate hands : 5 secs right hand, 5 secs left hand, etc...
Hanging on single hands for 5 seconds each gets you way less pumped than hanging for 10 seconds on both hands...
(This post was edited by ghisino on Jul 18, 2007, 4:17 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
fluxus
Jul 20, 2007, 1:04 AM
Post #24 of 38
(4766 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 3, 2003
Posts: 947
|
There are some problems in the above post that I think are worth addressing:
ghisino wrote: simply go to the crag and pick up routes you can climb almost effortless either because you know them very well or because they are below your onsight limit (eg 5.11a's you know perfectly and 5.9c/d onsight). Focus on : a)climbing quite fast, almost as fast as you can, and don't stop if there's no obvious rest. b)gripping holds with the least possible force c)using momentum : your movement on the rock should be a continuous flow rather than a sequence of single moves.
First climbing routes that you already know well is not good training for onsight, its not even all that good as movement training unless its done with specific movement learning goals, such as analysis of balance.
Second, Climbing fast is also bad training for onsight climbing. Onsighting is defined by a variety of paces, climbers who are trained to climb quickly or at a constant speed frequently make the error of trying to rush through parts of an onsight were they need to slow down and gather more information, which often results in a fall.
Third, Momentum is a tool it is not a rule. to say "your movement on the rock should be a continuous flow rather than a sequence of single moves." is a denial of reality when onsighting. When onsight there is a lot of learning to do, the brain is dealing with interperting a large amount of new information. Sometimes we can flow on an onsight other times we can't because we are learning and interperting.
In reply to: Another good thing is that this kind of training builds a sort of climbing moves vocabulary : eg you've done so many knee drops that when you need to make one on a new route, you don't stop to think where to put your feet and how to twist your body, you simply do the move.
This again denies how the brain works. While the first part is correct, we do need a great deal of movement practice to develop motor programs, this does not mean that in an onsight situation the movement will be automatic. In an onsight the brain still needs to identify what holds are available and what movement pattern is best in that context. The automatic type of movement described above occurs in situations when the specific movement has been rehearsed.
In reply to: To be a good onsight climber you have to make climbing moves as obvious as walking. Do you consciously think where to put your feet while walking on a trail? If you do it, does it take so long?
Again this makes very little sense in onsight situations. Onsighting is all about collecting and interperting information, this is not an automatic process when one is on a challenging onsight.
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Jul 20, 2007, 2:25 AM
Post #25 of 38
(4737 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
ghisino wrote: simply go to the crag and pick up routes you can climb almost effortless either because you know them very well or because they are below your onsight limit (eg 5.11a's you know perfectly and 5.9c/d onsight).
And fourth, there's no such rating as 5.9c/d.
Jay
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
