Sep 1, 2007, 3:53 PM
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Would you use stainless strike/hit/hammer anchors?
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An image is attached to give you an idea what this poll is about. Please pick more than one option if there are multiple answers you like.
The hypothetical bolts would be 100% stainless steel, tested, and more affordable than Petzl Longlife bolts (at least 40% cheaper). Any other ideas/suggestions?
(This post was edited by braxtron on Sep 1, 2007, 3:57 PM)
Sep 3, 2007, 9:37 PM
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Re: [braxtron] Would you use stainless strike/hit/hammer anchors?
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I think selecting a size from all the options you have listed in your poll, especially length is more dependant on rock type/quality then personal preference.
I'm curious what's up with the bolting polls, planning on doing some major bolting?
Sep 4, 2007, 6:59 AM
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Re: [mattm], [skinner] Would you use stainless strike/hit/hammer anchors?
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These imaginary bolts would be very similar to the Petzl Longlife, but there are a few (potential) improvements. 1. Hole diameter, 2. Length, 3. Threaded, 4. Utility.
These would be longer (see poll measurements). The LongLife is only 47mm (1.85"). Not so comforting in soft rock...
Hanger theft may be an issue some places, but there are other, more attractive options than permanently affixing the hanger to a bolt. Unfortunately, this also makes removal/replacement ugly. Threads would allow for removal of the hanger and "pounding-in" of the bolt when the need arises and would enable the user to bring the hanger closer to the rock face if the placement was less than ideal.
As for convenience, these bolts would be easy to place and difficult to muck up. We've all heard that wedge bolts are a no-no in soft rock (e.g. sandstone) and expansion bolts can also be useless if they're not placed right (over-torqued). (Yes, glue-ins are likely the best option in soft stone) These bolts could be a viable alternative, as there are no torque issues or parts that can damage a hole in soft rock and ruin a placement.
However, thorough testing is required to see if this is all just a dream.
**A friend and I imagine different lengths and diameters would be tested to ensure proper strength. These hypothetical bolts would be manufactured by a hypothetical ISO certified company.**
Your thoughts?
(This post was edited by braxtron on Sep 4, 2007, 7:01 AM)
Sep 5, 2007, 1:20 AM
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Re: [braxtron] , [skinner] Would you use stainless strike/hit/hammer anchors?
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Well.. my only experience with this type of anchor bolt was in concrete in a construction application. We ended up swithing to drop-in style bolts because with the strike type, if the hole wasn't the exact length, they'd end up at all different depths, some to deep to be useful. The drop-in style could be tapped into the required depth, then torqued.
I think there is a definate advantage to having a threaded anchor head, having just replaced a hanger a few weeks ago on a route, where it looked like it took a pretty good hit from rockfall,
In sandstone, definatly glue in, or in the really soft stuff, drilled angles.
Sep 5, 2007, 7:54 AM
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Re: [skinner] Would you use stainless strike/hit/hammer anchors?
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Thanks for your input Kevin! I think with strike bolts, as long as the hole is deeper than the bolt is long, and the nut & washer are on the bolt when it's being tapped into the hole & set, there shouldn't be any depth issues. Do you agree?
Sep 5, 2007, 10:38 AM
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Re: [braxtron] Would you use stainless strike/hit/hammer anchors?
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braxtron wrote:
as long as the hole is deeper than the bolt is long, and the nut & washer are on the bolt when it's being tapped into the hole..
I think this would be the key to setting strike-type anchors.
What would be interesting, and not all that difficult to do, would be to do some comparison outward pull tests with both, strike and torque type anchors.
With torque type anchors, as far as lateral strength goes.. if you are drilling the proper size of hole, they are basically set after tapping them in w/o even torquing them. Where as with the strike type, they basically have to slide freely into the hole up to their set-depth, before setting them which applies the outward force? Except for having to fumble with and extra piece, I suppose a person could use a short length of pipe that would fit over the nut and against the hanger to drive them into a tighter hole prior to actually striking-setting them?
Sep 5, 2007, 2:01 PM
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Re: [skinner] Would you use stainless strike/hit/hammer anchors?
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My only concern is that the bolt must ALLWAYS drop in the hole easily. If you had to tap it in then it would expand prematurly and you end up with a botched placement.. 3/8 x 2 3/4 is my usual poision. Do the tests and if you get a stainless bolt that matches or excedes the shear and pull of the 5 piece sleve bolt but has a better price point then you have a winner. There is no need for annother overpriced bolt on the market!!
Sep 5, 2007, 2:44 PM
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Re: [tradmanclimbs] Would you use stainless strike/hit/hammer anchors?
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tradmanclimbs wrote:
My only concern is that the bolt must ALLWAYS drop in the hole easily. If you had to tap it in then it would expand prematurly and you end up with a botched placement..
Ok, well Yes/No
For Sleeve bolts, the diameter of the hole is greater than the diameter of the actual bolt to allow space for the sleeve.
For Wedge bolts, the hole is drilled to be the same diameter as the bolt, which gives the maximum shear strength in relation to hole size.
Compression bolts, the hole is drilled to be the same diameter as the bolt.
Sep 5, 2007, 3:03 PM
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Re: [braxtron] Would you use stainless strike/hit/hammer anchors?
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No I don't think I would use those.
Granite, almost exclusively. I use wedge stainless steel, primarily a cost issue for me. You won't even come remotely close to the cost of a full strength SS wedge bolt. You'll be twice the cost, or more.
Now if you can get those bolts down under a buck a piece then maybe we'll have something to talk about.
Sep 5, 2007, 3:51 PM
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Re: [dingus] Would you use stainless strike/hit/hammer anchors?
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Skinner I know how wedge and sleve bolts work! I am talking about the strike bolts. If the strike bolt hangs up in the hole you have a botched placement for certain......
Sep 5, 2007, 4:22 PM
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Re: [tradmanclimbs] Would you use stainless strike/hit/hammer anchors?
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Actually, there's an option to avoid the "premature expansion" problem. Strike bolts could come with a separate pin, meaning the bolt could be tapped in without the pin in place, then the pin placed in the bolt and driven in to set it. This does add the problem of dropped pin = unexpandable bolt, though. Maybe each bolt should come with 2 pins to save clumsy folk (like me) who occasionally drop things long distances...
Sep 5, 2007, 9:34 PM
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Re: [braxtron] , [skinner] Would you use stainless strike/hit/hammer anchors?
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braxtron wrote:
These imaginary bolts would be very similar to the Petzl Longlife, but there are a few (potential) improvements. ...
As for convenience, these bolts would be easy to place and difficult to muck up. ... Your thoughts?
I think your* misunderestimating** the ability of the American people to muck things up.
*Yes, I purposely used "your" in place of "you're". It grates on my nerves, now it can grate on yours too. **GWB is a fucking idiot. Either that or fucking brilliant, but I don't think I'm misunderestimating him on that one.
Sep 6, 2007, 12:36 AM
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Re: [braxtron] Would you use stainless strike/hit/hammer anchors?
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Not all bolts are created equally. I would wager that the ones your thinking of using are not good enough for rock climbing applications. Go to the website and find the data on shear and pullout strengths.
Those hit anchors would probably need to be 5/8 dia. to be as strong as the Petzl long life. LF's are crap in anything other than hard rock.
Everyone please stop looking at Home Depot for anchors.
BOLTS NEED TO HOLD A MINIMUM OF 25kn OR BETTER when the rock is not in question. [ie: hard granite]. In softer rock the bolt needs to be even bigger to use more of the rock.
Edit: I didn't realize this is a hypo pro. They would still need to be larger dia.
Good luck with your mousetrap
(This post was edited by rocknice2 on Sep 6, 2007, 12:50 AM)
Sep 6, 2007, 4:28 AM
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Re: [rocknice2] Would you use stainless strike/hit/hammer anchors?
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Hi Braxton, I could see where you could get rich on this idea. Don't let the negativity crank you left so you miss the path.
The reality is that most of us do not have experience with these kinds of anchors. So we don't know what we are talking about. I'm not saying that to be a shithead, although I am that sometimes. I am saying based on my experience, and that is I WAS a concrete construction foreman a while back, have installed a shitload of climbing bolts in my life, and have worked in the fastener industry for the last 20 years or so. Yet I know next to nothing about this product or your mission, and I suspect I'm in the center of a rather large herd.
If you think about how easy and fast it would be to install a pin drive, this would be the preferred anchor on that basis alone.
Of course, speed isn't the #1 basis, strength then convenience are the prime basis for selecting an anchor.
The "Safe Climbing" web site says this:
"Naildrives Naildrives, such as the Petzl Long Life (Figure 5),expand when you drive a nail through the center of the bolt, expanding the anchor at the back of the hole.
If we had our druthers we'd make everyone use the Petzl Long Life for hard rock. Available in 1/2inch and 12millimeter sizes the Long Life is stronger than the Petzl Coeur hanger, which breaks at around 6000 pounds shear and 4000 pounds tensile. Besides having Herculean strength, the Long Life is easy to place, tamper proof so you don't have to worry about some low-rent swiping the hanger, and because both bolt and hanger are stainless steel, is virtually corrosion free. Unfortunately, even with the Long Life's advantages you aren't likely to ever clip many- they cost $9 each, hanger included.
The Long Life is fine in hard rock, but don't count on one in medium rock, where it can fail at under 2000 pounds. Also, don't confuse the Long Life with the fragile all-American, which looks similar and is temptingly available in many hardware stores at about a fourth the cost. You can tell a Long Life from the All American by color: the Petzl bolt is silver; the other is gold.
On our hydraulic puller the 3/8inch all-American sheared off at a paltry 1000 pounds. Even the meaty looking 1/2inch one, rated to 3620 pounds tensile, broke at 2200 pounds-a pathetic performance for a bolt this large. And don't even think about using the 1/4inch jobs: the ones we tested snapped off under a 400 pound load."
I would think picking one or 2 up and closely examining it Vis-a-vis the Petzl would be the first start. Perhaps the material is thinner on the all-American? Perhaps the nail doesn't set the same? I don't know. Check with ASCA and see if they have any written reports or anecdotal stories of interest ("damn things would snap off at the head every time", kind of thing). The All American sites says that they have all the approvals, which is strange and shocking that the ASCA had poor real world results.
After examining all existing available products, next would be to try and design a prototype of equal or superior quality. Toss a few designs on a screw machine and see how they pull in the real world.
If you can get it to prototype well and perform to specs comparable to the wedge anchors, you will have a winner if you can bring it in under budget. The poll doesn't really tell you anything. I do not see a "I don't know my head from my ass about pindrives" box on your poll, or I would have checked it, as would many others.
HOWEVER: I have noticed that the 5/8" diameter Sabertooths which were put into the Pioneer Route on Monkey Face in @ late 1970-early 1980, are starting to fail. This is a different anchor with a similar locking style design, except larger. Essentially the sabertooths would be drilled to an exact depth, then slammed with a hammer which would drive a cone from the backside radially expanding the anchor. As they start to wiggle, they slightly wear the rock, making it out of tolerance. Hammering it again or further seems to gain no strength. A wedge or sleeve anchor in a similar situation can easily be torqued down further, and on welded tuff, they don't seem to fail via wear.
I could see that if you can crank it out as noted, I could be turned into a believer.You might consider varying the outside of the thing so maybe it can dig into soft rock as well. Perhaps instead of annular rings you have sharp little engagement keys or something similar.
Good luck with it! I could see that if you can crank it out as noted, I could be turned into a believer.
Sep 6, 2007, 7:20 AM
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Re: [billcoe_] Would you use stainless strike/hit/hammer anchors?
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Thanks for the words of confidence, Bill. It's a welcome change from the typical RC.com negativity & unfounded criticism. I also appreciate others' intelligent feedback and welcome more.
I'll keep you posted on the progress of these hypothetical bolts. If they were to be sold, they'd be found here: http://renobclimbing.com
(This post was edited by braxtron on Sep 7, 2007, 7:23 AM)
"If we had our druthers we'd make everyone use the Petzl Long Life for hard rock. Available in 1/2inch and 12millimeter sizes the Long Life is stronger than the Petzl Coeur hanger, which breaks at around 6000 pounds shear and 4000 pounds tensile. Besides having Herculean strength, the Long Life is easy to place, tamper proof so you don't have to worry about some low-rent swiping the hanger, and because both bolt and hanger are stainless steel, is virtually corrosion free. Unfortunately, even with the Long Life's advantages you aren't likely to ever clip many- they cost $9 each, hanger included."
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