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poomasta
Sep 5, 2007, 9:55 PM
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The "would you ditch the girlfriend" post, while ludicrous, got me to question some recent climbing ordeals with my wife. First off, we've both been climbing about 3 years; I'm more into it than her, and that's fine, but some of our recent climbing adventures have got me thinking about limiting our climbing relationship going forward.
About a month ago we were climbing in Eldo on vacation. I wanted to do Bastille crack and she was cool with it. About halfway up the route, she was an emotional wreck...frustrated, sobbing, & generally hating life (this is very unlike her...we've been together 10 years and i've seen her cry maybe half that number). Anyway, I'm not sure why she broke down. I thought she was scared/freaked out by the exposure, but she claims that wasn't it (we usually climb single pitch sport back home). She claims she was frustrated by the difficulty of the route...but that doesn't seem like something to break down over. And, when she finally stopped stalling at the crux moves, she did them all clean, first time. So after tryin to calm her down at each belay, we finally made it off the route, and I swore I would never drag her up something she didn't want to do again. I was frustrated by the whole thing (it took us like 4 hours to climb the route!), and ticked that we didn't get to climb more routes during the vacation.
This break down thing happened again this weekend at Smith Rock. I was VERY clear before we went on vacation that I wanted to climb Monkey Face, but ONLY if she was game. Suspecting that more information about what to expect on the route would be helpful (she rarely checks out guidebooks before getting on a climb), I encouraged her to "study up" on the climb (we even practiced jugging in the back yard). So, day #1 at Smith is great: we climb some single pitch stuff. She has trouble following a couple things, but gets to the top of some 8s, 9s, 10s w/o issue. Day #2 at Smith: we start up the Monkey via the West Face Variation (5.8), and I set up the belay at the top of pitch #1. She follows, gets to a difficult section in the climb and the breakdown starts. The climbing did seem harder than 5.7, but she follows 5.10 just fine...so again, I don't fully buy the "frustration" explanation (while it took her an hour to get up the pitch, she did it without falling). She finally gets up to the belay and really lets it out. I feel like a complete ass bcuz this is all happening again, and i'm not a big fan of putting her in a situation that make her feel this way. We end up bailing on the climb (which turns out to be ok since it starts raining on the rap down), but as I'm coming down, I'm thinking in the back of my mind "this sucks...there are so many routes i'm never gonna be able to climb with you if we can't figure out what's going on in your head."
In discussing these episodes, she mentioned that my love for her is "conditionally based" on her success at climbing, and that she feels pressured to succeed, especially on multi-pitch stuff. This seems like a decent explanation except that when she quits stalling at a crux and actually commits to a sequence, she does it just fine on her first try! I think she's using this "conditional love" argument as a crafty coverup for something else...which would also make sense, because, well, she is smarter than me and I can't figure out another explanation.
What I'm tired of happening is getting all excited about going to some sweet climbing destination, gearing up for a classic climb, and then having to watch another breakdown that leaves me feeling 1) guilty for draggin her up a rock and 2) pissed that I'm not getting to enjoy the climb.
Do others have experience with this scenario? Should I abandon future attempts to climb classic multi-pitch routes with her, or is there some obvious problem that could be addressed? I'm fine sticking to the single pitch stuff with her if that means I never have to witness another breakdown, but I don't want to give up all hope yet.
Thoughts/advice appreciated.
Mike
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stymingersfink
Sep 5, 2007, 10:14 PM
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Suggestion #1:
Don't ever, and I mean EVER, schedule a climbing trip to coincide with THAT time of the month. To be safe, it is best to include the two weeks previous and the two weeks immediately following the time mentioned above as prohibited times to schedule the trip.
Suggestion #2:
part a) Prove that your "love" of her is NOT conditional on her being able to provide you a safe belay. Do this by dumping her as a belayer (pawn her off on her cousin who also climbs).
part b) Now recruit a partner who can push you on their good days and keep up with you on your good days.
part c) Sign the divorce paperwork when it's delivered by courier. Become a dirtbag climber.
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clee03m
Sep 5, 2007, 10:15 PM
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I'm into climbing more than my husband. My advise to you is that you may want to add to your list of climbing partners other than just your wife. That way you are not blaming her for your ruined vacation/trips. May be without realizing you made your wife feel like you wouldn't like her as much if she doesn't force herself to climb up with you. And probably more pressure on multiple pitches since you can't get to the end of climb unless she makes it. Don't give up multiple pitch or classic climbs; reassure her that you love her no matter what, and find yourself other partners who share your love of climb with you. And enjoy single pitches with your wife.
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macblaze
Sep 5, 2007, 10:16 PM
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No don't ditch it altogether...just figure it out and then ditch that.
Yah yah I know, easier said than done. My experience is pretty close to yours although it's never on multipitch. I think that's because I'm always above her and somehow that means it's less "dangerous?" This summer it was because we started climbing trad and the different nature of the climbs (on toprope) would kick in her "I can't" mode. "Just hand jam!..." "I can't..." followed by a lengthy calming period and eventual success (or occasionally bailing).
Personally I think I've narrowed it down to her level of concentration. If something interrupts her then she goes into panic mode and then can't self-recover. Logic, persuasion and (unfortunately I have to admit it) cursing don't help. We both climb cause ti scares the hell out of us but for me conquering the fear is "winning", for her getting to the top is "winning". If something stops her from "Winning" then it can (occasionally) degenerate into an "I can't-fest". There was a thread in the women's forum a while back about being pushed and I had her read it and try and tell me where she fit in to the spectrum. Now I try really hard to respect her choices while still giving her a push.
But I hear ya man, it is very very hard to see someone you respect bail or break down on something you totally know they can master.
(This post was edited by macblaze on Sep 5, 2007, 10:18 PM)
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paintrain
Sep 5, 2007, 10:32 PM
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I think you are right about the cover up or you would see it more often when you are climbing single pitch stuff. You need to get to the heart of why she is breaking down. If you can't get her to figure out what the deal is you may be stuck with single pitch stuff.
Some people just get scared. It isn't the difficulty or the height, but what lies ahead and the commitment to something with an unknown outcome. Stepping out of the comfort zone.
Hanging belays and exposure are something you don't get cragging. It takes some easing into it for some. Some people don't want anything to do with it.
PT
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whoa
Sep 5, 2007, 10:35 PM
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performance anxiety. she knows how important it is to you, how much you've been looking forward to it, and she feels a lot of pressure, resents it, resents you, hates the climb.
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davidji
Sep 5, 2007, 10:35 PM
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macblaze wrote: If something interrupts her then she goes into panic mode and then can't self-recover.
A few times I've used controlled breathing to keep panic at bay while soloing. Most recently it was on what was intended to be a more direct approach, but turned out to be a couple of pitches of soloing.
Breath in for a 7 count, hold 1, out for 7 count, hold 1, etc. works for me.
Like drugs, I think breathing exercises can be harmful if misused. Use with care.
(This post was edited by davidji on Sep 5, 2007, 10:44 PM)
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bandycoot
Sep 5, 2007, 10:46 PM
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When multipitch becomes "multibitch." I've tried to deal with stuff like this before. Women are just crazy sometimes. They make stuff up in their heads, assumptions about how you feel or how you're judging them, and don't believe you when it isn't true. I hope you have more success than I have trying to figure out how to deal with it!
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poomasta
Sep 5, 2007, 10:51 PM
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clee03m wrote: I'm into climbing more than my husband. My advise to you is that you may want to add to your list of climbing partners other than just your wife. That way you are not blaming her for your ruined vacation/trips. May be without realizing you made your wife feel like you wouldn't like her as much if she doesn't force herself to climb up with you. And probably more pressure on multiple pitches since you can't get to the end of climb unless she makes it. Don't give up multiple pitch or classic climbs; reassure her that you love her no matter what, and find yourself other partners who share your love of climb with you. And enjoy single pitches with your wife.
That's a good point, and it is something I've tried to do. There are def "guy" trips vs. "couple" trips...and she's cool with that. It might be that I'm just trying to get too much out of couple trips...it's just hard to restrain myself to easy single pitch climbing when I'm in a place with so much more to offer. that, and most of my other climbing friends can't afford to take the time off work (or the plane ticket) to hit the good climbing destinations...
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poomasta
Sep 5, 2007, 10:59 PM
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stymingersfink wrote: Don't ever, and I mean EVER, schedule a climbing trip to coincide with THAT time of the month. To be safe, it is best to include the two weeks previous and the two weeks immediately following the time mentioned above as prohibited times to schedule the trip.
So...2 weeks before and 2 weeks after, huh? That doesn't leave a very big window of opportunity 
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poomasta
Sep 5, 2007, 11:06 PM
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whoa wrote: performance anxiety. she knows how important it is to you, how much you've been looking forward to it, and she feels a lot of pressure, resents it, resents you, hates the climb.
Hmmm...that might very well be the explanation. Both times it happened, she knew how important the climb was to me. So maybe if i go into the climb with a more cavalier "let's see how it goes" attitude, that might help resolve the problem?
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whoa
Sep 5, 2007, 11:13 PM
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poomasta wrote: whoa wrote: performance anxiety. she knows how important it is to you, how much you've been looking forward to it, and she feels a lot of pressure, resents it, resents you, hates the climb. Hmmm...that might very well be the explanation. Both times it happened, she knew how important the climb was to me. So maybe if i go into the climb with a more cavalier "let's see how it goes" attitude, that might help resolve the problem?
that's certainly one approach. an alternative is to recognize that the biggest fit always wins: next time, you need to cry much longer and louder than she does.
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crimpandgo
Sep 5, 2007, 11:27 PM
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Plan to bring more people when you climb/vacation. That way you and your wife can go on the same trip but if one person doesn't want to climb, the other can climb without feeling left out (or left at home).
This works for my wife. She wants us to do things together but that doesn't mean we have to climb together. Just being there hanging out is good enough for her.
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lithiummetalman
Sep 5, 2007, 11:28 PM
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clee03m wrote: I'm into climbing more than my husband. My advise to you is that you may want to add to your list of climbing partners other than just your wife. That way you are not blaming her for your ruined vacation/trips. May be without realizing you made your wife feel like you wouldn't like her as much if she doesn't force herself to climb up with you. And probably more pressure on multiple pitches since you can't get to the end of climb unless she makes it. Don't give up multiple pitch or classic climbs; reassure her that you love her no matter what, and find yourself other partners who share your love of climb with you. And enjoy single pitches with your wife.
clee03m has it spot on, I had learned this lesson the hard way. One thing have learned is definitely to have different partners (groups) for different goals if possible, sometimes it's hard to find other folks to participate, but in the long run it's better for the relationship. Def stick to single pitch with wife, or climb a super easy multi-pitch for the scenery rather than the route, it becomes a quite bit more enjoyable for both parties. Don't forget to be supportive no matter what, it's better to ditch the route than the relationship.
best of luck. cheers
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poomasta
Sep 5, 2007, 11:41 PM
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crimpandgo wrote: Plan to bring more people when you climb/vacation. That way you and your wife can go on the same trip but if one person doesn't want to climb, the other can climb without feeling left out (or left at home). This works for my wife. She wants us to do things together but that doesn't mean we have to climb together. Just being there hanging out is good enough for her.
Also seems like a great idea. We're trying to do just such a thing on our next trip to red rocks. thanks for the advice.
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tradmanclimbs
Sep 5, 2007, 11:55 PM
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It's obvious that she is a sport climbing weini Sport climb with her but have a few other partners so that you can get your licks in as well
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stymingersfink
Sep 6, 2007, 12:47 AM
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poomasta wrote: stymingersfink wrote: Don't ever, and I mean EVER, schedule a climbing trip to coincide with THAT time of the month. To be safe, it is best to include the two weeks previous and the two weeks immediately following the time mentioned above as prohibited times to schedule the trip. So...2 weeks before and 2 weeks after, huh? That doesn't leave a very big window of opportunity 
Perhaps you outta look into gettin' her on the Depo shot, it might provide you with a slightly larger window.
OTOH, IME, the "fairer" sex is often anything but, so you can expect outbursts of irrationality at any and all times that she feels it is called for. Afterall, it's only irrational to you... to her it's perfectly rational.
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sactownclimber
Sep 6, 2007, 1:24 AM
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lithiummetalman wrote: Don't forget to be supportive no matter what, it's better to ditch the route than the relationship.
Best advice given so far.
Though I'm not married, I have experienced 'the breakdown' once with somebody I was dating . . . it was super frustrating, so I feel your pain.
I echo what others said about having other climbing partners besides your wife. I'd be stoked if I could marry a woman who enjoyed climbing as much as I do . . . BUT I have also experienced firsthand the complications that a romantic relationship can place on a climbing partnership. When I'm ten pitches off the deck with a storm blowing in, there's no room for "You hurt my feelings when you told me to hurry up." My experience is that some women can compartmentalize their emotions from the immediate situation . . . but most cannot, and that's a serious liability in a life-and-death situation.
Whoever I'm climbing with, I need to know that they can focus on the task at hand when the shit hits the fan . . . and if they can't then I won't climb routes with them where the relative risk is high.
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microbarn
Sep 6, 2007, 1:58 AM
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lithiummetalman wrote: clee03m wrote: I'm into climbing more than my husband. My advise to you is that you may want to add to your list of climbing partners other than just your wife. That way you are not blaming her for your ruined vacation/trips. May be without realizing you made your wife feel like you wouldn't like her as much if she doesn't force herself to climb up with you. And probably more pressure on multiple pitches since you can't get to the end of climb unless she makes it. Don't give up multiple pitch or classic climbs; reassure her that you love her no matter what, and find yourself other partners who share your love of climb with you. And enjoy single pitches with your wife. clee03m has it spot on, I had learned this lesson the hard way. One thing have learned is definitely to have different partners (groups) for different goals if possible, sometimes it's hard to find other folks to participate, but in the long run it's better for the relationship. Def stick to single pitch with wife, or climb a super easy multi-pitch for the scenery rather than the route, it becomes a quite bit more enjoyable for both parties. Don't forget to be supportive no matter what, it's better to ditch the route than the relationship. best of luck. cheers
I can see where clee03m may be correct for some, this is definitly not the case with my wife and I. My wife climbs mainly because I do. If she is out on the trip, then I am expected to climb with HER. I have elected to have guy trips versus her trips. If she comes then I play to her wants.
From your description, it sounds like you have tried "harder" routes that are relatively close to her limit. I am a big fan of pushing only ONE aspect of your climbing at a time. So, you are either climbing hard, learning new skills, or pushing mentally. You are asking her to climb reasonably hard while at the same time pushing herself mentally, AND learning the rope/gear management. Maybe you should back off a bit and make sure the next route is WELL below her climbing level and easy from the rope/gear standpoint.
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eastvillage
Sep 6, 2007, 2:06 AM
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It seem obvious that your wife might only be climbing because you do.
She might not really like it all. Does she talk excitedly about potential routes to do? Does she lead? Do you encourage her to lead? I ask this because never wanting to lead indicates a less than burning enthusiasm for the sport. And Lukewarm is a bad temperature for climbing.
Climbing is for climbers. You should find another partner for climbing.
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notapplicable
Sep 6, 2007, 2:29 AM
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microbarn wrote: lithiummetalman wrote: clee03m wrote: I'm into climbing more than my husband. My advise to you is that you may want to add to your list of climbing partners other than just your wife. That way you are not blaming her for your ruined vacation/trips. May be without realizing you made your wife feel like you wouldn't like her as much if she doesn't force herself to climb up with you. And probably more pressure on multiple pitches since you can't get to the end of climb unless she makes it. Don't give up multiple pitch or classic climbs; reassure her that you love her no matter what, and find yourself other partners who share your love of climb with you. And enjoy single pitches with your wife. clee03m has it spot on, I had learned this lesson the hard way. One thing have learned is definitely to have different partners (groups) for different goals if possible, sometimes it's hard to find other folks to participate, but in the long run it's better for the relationship. Def stick to single pitch with wife, or climb a super easy multi-pitch for the scenery rather than the route, it becomes a quite bit more enjoyable for both parties. Don't forget to be supportive no matter what, it's better to ditch the route than the relationship. best of luck. cheers I can see where clee03m may be correct for some, this is definitly not the case with my wife and I. My wife climbs mainly because I do. If she is out on the trip, then I am expected to climb with HER. I have elected to have guy trips versus her trips. If she comes then I play to her wants. From your description, it sounds like you have tried "harder" routes that are relatively close to her limit. I am a big fan of pushing only ONE aspect of your climbing at a time. So, you are either climbing hard, learning new skills, or pushing mentally. You are asking her to climb reasonably hard while at the same time pushing herself mentally, AND learning the rope/gear management. Maybe you should back off a bit and make sure the next route is WELL below her climbing level and easy from the rope/gear standpoint.
This is a very good observation. Next time climb a five pitch 5.5 and see what kind of results you get.
That being said, it may be beyond her control. My brother has completely shut down on routes that are well below his limit that we have climbed several times in the past. I'm talkin, sweeting, shaking, vertigo, I mean full on freak out. No real explination, he just shuts down and can't control it. Hopefully that is not what you are faced with but it maybe a lost cause.
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joeforte
Sep 6, 2007, 2:33 AM
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The "Panic" has happened to my girlfriend too. Just let her know that it's ok to fall, fail, hangdog, aid, jug, haul, whatever it takes. After my girl realized that I don't have huge expectations for her to meet, she started climbing a lot harder. Now, she takes pride in saying "I can follow anything you'll lead!"
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shockabuku
Sep 6, 2007, 3:05 AM
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It sounds like your wife has a mental hang up on multi-pitch routes. It is a significantly bigger commitment if you can't walk off between pitches and having no quick/easy way out may be more than she's comfortable with. I would lay off the multi-pitch routes with her and find someone that shares similar goals as you with similar capabilities. Then I'd wait for her to come around and bring up doing multi-pitch routes again before trying another with her. If you insist on pushing the point however, I'd find some multi-pitch routes with walk-offs at the belays or really big secure belay ledges at the least.
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tahamsh
Sep 6, 2007, 4:36 AM
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You should be grateful that she climbs with you at all.
I can definitely relate -- my wife loves being outdoors, hanging out, and even belaying for me. But, she doesn't enjoy climbing at all. It's frustrating because I feel guilty each time I drag her out to the crag - though she usually doesn't complain. I guess I need to admit to myself that climbing isn't going to be a family thing for us; and find other climbing partners. It sucks when you can't have it all!
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