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roy_hinkley_jr
Sep 30, 2007, 2:52 AM
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I sure am glad this crag is on private land and has the permission of the owner to develop it for sport climbers. Because if this was public land under discussion, it would certainly make those defenders of littering look pathetic. As long as they own the rock, or have permission of the owner, then leaving fixed gear is fine and removing it is a bad thing. If it so happens that the land belongs to taxpayers, then trash removal is the responsibilty of all real climbers.
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ja1484
Sep 30, 2007, 8:22 PM
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What scares me the most about all this is the continued propagation of the "new wave" ethos that safety comes from gear, particularly (for the past 15 years or so) fixed gear/bolts.
IT DOESN'T.
The best analogy I ever heard on the subject, and took to heart, came from John Long in I forget what edition of his "How to Rock Climb" text (2nd ed?) that was my bible during my formative years. He puts it thusly (paraphrased):
Skydivers carry a backup parachute should their main chute fail. It's the last line of defense. The equivalent, in climbing, of the backup parachute is the roped safety system and whatever gear comprises it. Your *primary* parachute is not falling in the first place - using your skill and good judgement to make sure you don't get in over your head.
So, what's the parallel between this point and our discussion of the "cleaner 'biner"? Simple, it's a propensity to rely on the gear instead of one's self. Climbing is as safe *or convenient as you make it, not otherwise. If you have trouble with a particular aspect when it isn't done your "usual" way, that's a sign to broaden your bag of tricks, not whine about the fact that your skill set is anemic.
It may be a hassle to clean those starts without a cleaner. How bad do you want your gear back?
Cleaning overhung bolts is not hard - not at all - in the grand scheme of climbing inconveniences. Down-lead a hard crack through a roof on clean pro and then come back and we'll talk.
the last thing I'm going to lend credence to is someone whining about a fixed gear situation changing. It's not 100% reliable, it never has been, and almost everything in climbing never will be. The onus is upon US, the climbers, to make ourselves more adaptable, not turn crags into over-fixed nurseries for people too lazy take responsibility for getting themselves (or in this case, all their gear) home safely. Whether it's you or your fancy new Petzl Spirit draws, it's not the community's job to babysit.
End. Of. Story.
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ja1484
Sep 30, 2007, 8:39 PM
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curator wrote: What' so funny about it is that the people that bitch about "leaving your shit at the crag" and "being too lazy to take your stuff home at the end of the day" are the 5.8, overweight, goobers.
Tell that to Segal, Trotter, Berthod, Decaria, MacLeod and the other guys leading the ".14 and harder" clean trad movement.
There are many MANY trad climbers out there who lead in the .11, .12, .13 range, and believe me, it's a lot more physically taxing to hang on one arm whilst arranging a finicky nut or cam than to clip an in-situ bolt.
It's hilarious to me (and belies a notable inexperience) that some climbers thing people climb trad at lower numbers because of physical ability. I know .10 and .11 trad leaders that redpoint high .13s on clip-ups.
People stick to lower numbers on trad because clean gear isn't a bolt. It's not multi-directional, and you're not guaranteed a bomber piece every 6 - 10 feet (15+ in NC  ). When you're 25 feet above a #4 stopper or a questionable pinky, you want to be making moves you feel SECURE in doing, not risking a fall.
Trad leaders lead at lower numbers than their redpoint score because they don't want to die and they're not slaves to their egos, not because they can't climb harder. Venture out of the "90 feet or less" arena and you might figure this out yourself.
This type of attitude gets a lot of people hurt. Don't think because you've wired the crag's classic .12c that you can pop on an .11d trad line and smoke it without even breaking a sweat. you might end up breaking something else.
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caughtinside
Sep 30, 2007, 8:49 PM
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oh look. all the internet trad super ethics guys are all upset about a dinky cleaner biner on a route they csnt climb and aren't interested in. big surprise.
there were some ridiculous comments in there too. I kind of expected VTG to know better. .12 climbers learn from .8 climbers? That's regressive and silly. LNT in climbing is a myth, even if you are a trad climber.
Can't speak to croft's fixed rope, but it doesn't surprise me in the least. I think you'd be surprised at how commonplace fixed ropes have become recently. Half of freerider is often fixed, and the Cookie cliff and arch rock as well as other valley crags often have fixed topropes up ALL WINTER. Ever heard of Ron Kauk? Werner Braun? Tell those guys about LNT.
I loved curators little rant, because it is 100% TRUE. I swear these trad ethics cops are some kind of heroes in their own minds, in love with the image that they think they're a part of. Well guess what. It means nothing.
Ve Believe in Nothink! Yah!
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ja1484
Sep 30, 2007, 9:14 PM
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caughtinside wrote: Wokka Wokka Wokka
And it goes on.
Think you misread the thread. OP's complaining about his missing dinky 'biner. Rest of us are telling him to suck it up.
Thankee.
I will agree that LNT is a firm myth, but so is man-made global warming, and people are still trying to curb it. Doesn't give one an excuse to leave their crap all over the communal playground.
(This post was edited by ja1484 on Sep 30, 2007, 9:20 PM)
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curator
Sep 30, 2007, 10:03 PM
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Knieveltech's question...how does a biner on the fourth bolt aid in cleaning the route. try to picture the route. It climbs out a steep tiered roof so when you get to the anchor if you lowered straight to the ground you would be about 30 feet away from your first couple draws. impossible to clean. So instead of lowering all the way down you stay tethered to the rope and since the upper draws are fixed you leave them as you move past them. Then at the fourth bolt you clip the lone biner in question with your end of the rope and lower straight back to the belayer cleaning the draws on the way. That way you don't have to stay tethered all the way down, clean your last draw and take a 50 foot pendulum into the trees and get hurt.
It is hilarious that vegastradguy questions if peter croft actually left a fixed toprope up for months. He did, why would I lie about it. It was on the pyranha extension at owens river gorge which he later sent at 13c/d.
"an eye sore is an eyesore" no matter how hard you climb. You know what's an eyesore....New York City, so I don't go there.
And the ground up clean movement.....Seagal, Trotter, Mcleod. Those guys are also bad ass sport climbers that clip fixed draws to redpoint their super hard projects. Like Mcleod's 14b hardest sport climb in scotland, or Trotter's 14c he did up at Lion's head or some Canadian limestone area. These guys don't take down cleaner biners at sport crags, I promise you.
And ja1484 please don't explain the trad game to me. I've redpointed 5.13 trad and sport routes. and i've even been multi-pitch climbing outside my "90 ft or less arena" (sorry about the spray). I've "fiddled in finicky nuts" and spent five years climbing in North Carolina, your little hardman mecca. I think I understand it. All the best trad climbers out there get strong on sport routes with cleaner biners and fixed draws. What if Mcleod, as a 5.10 goober like yourself, started working his E11, ground-up North Carolina style. He'd be dead. But he trained in a safe environment (sport routes), got strong, and was physically capable of sending the hardest trad route in the world.
I feel sorry for you ja1484. You could progress and be a better climber but you're so caught up in your warm ethical blanket that you'll never actually climb 5.12. Trad climbers hide behind their ethics to camouflage their physical weakness and laziness. Dude, suck it up and get strong and then go climb hard trad. You can't do that on scary run-out looking glass climbs cause if you fall you get hurt and then you're laying on the couch instead of getting stronger.
I'll ask again....Do any of the "remove the cleaner biner" ethics police climb 5.12?
I wouldn't have to reveal my arrogant, elitist-prick attitude if people would just stop stealing fixed gear.
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wmfork
Sep 30, 2007, 10:40 PM
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Clean the route on TR at the end of the day and quit bitching.
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CinnamonJohnson
Oct 1, 2007, 3:00 AM
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"Trad climbers hide behind their ethics to camouflage their physical weakness and laziness. Dude, suck it up and get strong and then go climb hard trad. biner" ethics police climb 5.12?"
This is completely true. And it is what sucks about climbing around NC. Half of these guys in the overweight trad ethics police just wanna do it "from the ground up", and they dont care about training or improving as a technical rock climber.
They are either adrenaline freaks who get a thrill from almost dying, or they have tiny dicks and they want to prove something.
These are the douches that talk about whether a sport climb was bolted on lead or on rappel.
Nobody cares if you learned from "How to Rock climb". We are talking about sport climbs at sport areas
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vegastradguy
Oct 1, 2007, 3:19 AM
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caughtinside wrote: there were some ridiculous comments in there too. I kind of expected VTG to know better. .12 climbers learn from .8 climbers? That's regressive and silly. LNT in climbing is a myth, even if you are a trad climber.
the sad thing is, this is true. however, that still doesnt make it right.
and, if a 5.8 climber goes out and leaves no trace of his outing, then the 5.12 climber who leaves his trash at the crag can certainly take a lesson.
i do my best to leave no trace when i go outdoors because its the right thing to do. i dont use this strange rule of "well, i climb 5.xx now, so i can leave stuff because its starting to get harder to clean it up..."
fuck that. what you do and how hard you climb is completely irrelevant to this conversation. clean up after yourself, that's all. or didnt your mother ever teach you that one?
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rjtrials
Oct 1, 2007, 3:20 AM
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curator wrote: I am a badass.
Shouldn't your username be 'roadkill' ??
Gimme a shout when ur back this way, i gots a proj for u to send :)
RJ
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caughtinside
Oct 1, 2007, 4:09 AM
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vegastradguy wrote: fuck that. what you do and how hard you climb is completely irrelevant to this conversation. clean up after yourself, that's all. or didnt your mother ever teach you that one?
No, it's not. You're applying an ethic to a different style of climbing which has accepted fixed gear. Furthermore, it tends to show up more on harder climbs, because they are steeper and more difficult to clean. Since you have no interest in doing that sort of climbing, it seems foolish that you're compelled to tell some .12 climber to downclimb .9, which, on a steep climb necessitating fixed gear, would mean exposing yourself to decking. Think about it. TERRIFIC IDEA.
The whole 'clean up after yourself' schtick is pretty tired to. It's not trash. keep your trad ethics at the trad crag, don't bitch about what those sportos are doing since you don't want to do their climbs anyway, and we'll all get along just fine.
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jt512
Oct 1, 2007, 5:13 AM
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vegastradguy wrote: In reply to: Peter Croft, surely he would take his stuff home at the end of the day. Last winter he had a fixed toprope on his project at Owens for months. Plus a cam anchor at ground level that I could have easily walked away with. Is it still booty that is up for grabs if it belongs to a guy that soloed astroman? if Croft actually did that, he just lost some serious respect from me- although i have trouble believing that.
I don't doubt for a second that Croft did that? Why? Because everybody who's anybody does that. And not just occasionally, but routinely. Permanent draws, topropes, and hand lines, never mind bolts and anchors. Have you ever actually been to a real sport crag, John?
In reply to: In reply to: I'm just trying to reveal what real climbing is like. Sometimes it involves fixed gear and faith that the common man won't steal your things. sometimes it does. in my mind, fixed gear can be left overnight, two days at most.
Says who? And why should this apply to draws but not bolts, or top anchors? How about trails to the crag? Should they be obliterated daily?
In reply to: start cleaning up after yourself, and then the ethics police wont have to steal your shit.
The ethics police are a bunch of wanna-be know-nothings. It's not like we really care what they think. We're just amazed at how they can be so deluded about what actual sport climbing entails.
Jay
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jt512
Oct 1, 2007, 5:18 AM
Post #39 of 53
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roy_hinkley_jr wrote: I sure am glad this crag is on private land and has the permission of the owner to develop it for sport climbers. Because if this was public land under discussion, it would certainly make those defenders of littering look pathetic. As long as they own the rock, or have permission of the owner, then leaving fixed gear is fine and removing it is a bad thing. If it so happens that the land belongs to taxpayers, then trash removal is the responsibilty of all real climbers.
Come on out to NJC and try removing some fixed gear. Have your Blue Cross paid up.
Jay
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valeberga
Oct 1, 2007, 6:12 AM
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curator wrote: I'll ask again....Do any of the "remove the cleaner biner" ethics police climb 5.12? I wouldn't have to reveal my arrogant, elitist-prick attitude if people would just stop stealing fixed gear.
Alright then, I'll ask again too:
How do you know the gear wasn't removed by an equal or better climber (than OP) because it was deemed inappropriate or in the way?
It's not stealing any more than it's abandonment.
In case you weren't paying attention, the rationale given for leaving gear was that it made cleaning easier. Not because it was 5.12. Your little "this is about grades" ruse is pathetic. Climbing 5.13 is not an excuse for doing whatever you feel like, and nor is it an excuse for you to throw a bratty temper tantrum about it when people object.
Whether or not it is okay to fix gear has nothing to do with the grade of the climb. It has to do with whether the people it affects find it acceptable. For the most part there doesn't seem to be a problem with fixed gear, because the only people that it affects significantly are the people who appreciate it. When that's not true, you have a problem, and that problem is shared by both sides. If you cry thief, they will cry litterer. You should try something more constructive.
Actually to be honest, rjtrials sounds like he's being pretty nice about it, so I hate to say it curator, but you're not helping him. Neither are you jt with your insinuation of violence.
Can you follow the route to clean it? Or how about a note/contact info twist-tied to the draw itself?
(This post was edited by valeberga on Oct 1, 2007, 6:47 AM)
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vegastradguy
Oct 1, 2007, 6:33 AM
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caughtinside wrote: vegastradguy wrote: fuck that. what you do and how hard you climb is completely irrelevant to this conversation. clean up after yourself, that's all. or didnt your mother ever teach you that one? No, it's not. You're applying an ethic to a different style of climbing which has accepted fixed gear. Furthermore, it tends to show up more on harder climbs, because they are steeper and more difficult to clean. Since you have no interest in doing that sort of climbing, it seems foolish that you're compelled to tell some .12 climber to downclimb .9, which, on a steep climb necessitating fixed gear, would mean exposing yourself to decking. Think about it. TERRIFIC IDEA. The whole 'clean up after yourself' schtick is pretty tired to. It's not trash. keep your trad ethics at the trad crag, don't bitch about what those sportos are doing since you don't want to do their climbs anyway, and we'll all get along just fine.
you seem to be under the notion that i dont sport climb. remember what happens when you assume?
and, once again, this is not about 'trad' and 'sport', this is about cleaning up after yourself. i should also note that my beef here is with the cleaner biner specifically. although, i still think that fixed draws are 1) a sign of laziness and 2) a unnecessary eyesore.
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vegastradguy
Oct 1, 2007, 6:41 AM
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jt512 wrote: In reply to: if Croft actually did that, he just lost some serious respect from me- although i have trouble believing that. I don't doubt for a second that Croft did that? Why? Because everybody who's anybody does that. And not just occasionally, but routinely. Permanent draws, topropes, and hand lines, never mind bolts and anchors. Have you ever actually been to a real sport crag, John?
spend a fair amount of time at sport crags, actually. cant say i've ever seen fixed lines. or cleaner biners. fixed draws, sure, all the time.
In reply to: In reply to: sometimes it does. in my mind, fixed gear can be left overnight, two days at most. Says who? And why should this apply to draws but not bolts, or top anchors? How about trails to the crag? Should they be obliterated daily?
because of visibility issues. trails should be neat and maintained, bolts should be camo, or at least not have a 14" draw hanging from them that makes them more obvious. you know, non-climbers visit crags too.
(This post was edited by vegastradguy on Oct 1, 2007, 6:42 AM)
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jt512
Oct 1, 2007, 6:54 AM
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vegastradguy wrote: caughtinside wrote: vegastradguy wrote: fuck that. what you do and how hard you climb is completely irrelevant to this conversation. clean up after yourself, that's all. or didnt your mother ever teach you that one? No, it's not. You're applying an ethic to a different style of climbing which has accepted fixed gear. Furthermore, it tends to show up more on harder climbs, because they are steeper and more difficult to clean. Since you have no interest in doing that sort of climbing, it seems foolish that you're compelled to tell some .12 climber to downclimb .9, which, on a steep climb necessitating fixed gear, would mean exposing yourself to decking. Think about it. TERRIFIC IDEA. The whole 'clean up after yourself' schtick is pretty tired to. It's not trash. keep your trad ethics at the trad crag, don't bitch about what those sportos are doing since you don't want to do their climbs anyway, and we'll all get along just fine. you seem to be under the notion that i dont sport climb. remember what happens when you assume? and, once again, this is not about 'trad' and 'sport', this is about cleaning up after yourself. i should also note that my beef here is with the cleaner biner specifically. although, i still think that fixed draws are 1) a sign of laziness and 2) a unnecessary eyesore.
Here's what I think is a sign of laziness: driving from vegas to RR instead of riding your bike. Clearly riding your bike would pollute less, contribute less to global warming, etc, so it's safe to assume you do that, right? Obviously you do, because you always do the harder, less impactful thing, right? Doing so is a categorical imperative to you, obviously, based on your posts. Creating an environmental impact, no matter how minor, in favor of convenience is never justifiable, right? That's why you have never, ever clipped a bolt, always ride your bike (which pollutes less than even the Prius that you undoubtedly own) to the crag, and will, now that a copper mining company has single-handedly forced the closure of a major climbing destination in Arizona, completely boycott electricity (since it is carried over copper wires) and pennies.
What's fucking hilarious is that the only people, in my experience, who give a shit about fixed gear are (a) climbers who, when it is convenient, happen to forget that bolts are fixed and (b) trad climbers or entry-level sport climbers, who don't climb on the kinds of steep hard-to-clean routes on which fixed draws are most useful.
Every single crag I sport climb at has fixed draws (including one that is smack dab in the middle of a Federally designated Wilderness area). In 20 years of climbing I have never once heard anyone who is not a member of the previous two groups complain about the fixed gear. Sport climbers appreciate the convenience, and tourists couldn't care less.
Jay
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CinnamonJohnson
Oct 1, 2007, 2:30 PM
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vegastradguy wrote: caughtinside wrote: fuck that. what you do and how hard you climb is completely irrelevant to this conversation. clean up after yourself, that's all. or didnt your mother ever teach you that one? Do you kiss your little trad partners with that mouth?
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dingus
Oct 1, 2007, 2:39 PM
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I reckon I don't give a shit about your fixed biner. I don't care if you weld it or it gets 'perma-stolen.'
That's the simple truth. Most of these other blokes would say the same thing, if they thought about it.
DMT
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caughtinside
Oct 1, 2007, 3:09 PM
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vegastradguy wrote: caughtinside wrote: vegastradguy wrote: fuck that. what you do and how hard you climb is completely irrelevant to this conversation. clean up after yourself, that's all. or didnt your mother ever teach you that one? No, it's not. You're applying an ethic to a different style of climbing which has accepted fixed gear. Furthermore, it tends to show up more on harder climbs, because they are steeper and more difficult to clean. Since you have no interest in doing that sort of climbing, it seems foolish that you're compelled to tell some .12 climber to downclimb .9, which, on a steep climb necessitating fixed gear, would mean exposing yourself to decking. Think about it. TERRIFIC IDEA. The whole 'clean up after yourself' schtick is pretty tired to. It's not trash. keep your trad ethics at the trad crag, don't bitch about what those sportos are doing since you don't want to do their climbs anyway, and we'll all get along just fine. you seem to be under the notion that i dont sport climb. remember what happens when you assume? and, once again, this is not about 'trad' and 'sport', this is about cleaning up after yourself. i should also note that my beef here is with the cleaner biner specifically. although, i still think that fixed draws are 1) a sign of laziness and 2) a unnecessary eyesore.
I know you climb sport routes some times. But I think I've also heard you mention you don't project routes. That's what this is about.
If you don't project sport routes and don't want to, that's cool. It would be nice if the practices of people who did were either respected or at least ignored. Not everyone wants to play by the rules of the trad taliban.
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ja1484
Oct 1, 2007, 3:21 PM
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Things have degenerated to namecalling and internet high school locker room posturing. Looks like the rc.n00b effect has taken over.
Annnnnnd....we're done here folks.
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bent_gate
Oct 1, 2007, 3:28 PM
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I got to say there definitely seems to be a changing trend developing in Sport Climbing. In Trad Climbing, the rights of the First Ascensionist are given the highest regard.
In Sport Climbing, the trend seems to be that the rights of "whoever climbs the hardest" deserves the highest regard.
It all depends on what you worship.
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vegastradguy
Oct 1, 2007, 3:30 PM
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caughtinside wrote: I know you climb sport routes some times. But I think I've also heard you mention you don't project routes. That's what this is about.
i dont project routes much. i do have two projects at the moment, though. i am, however, primarily an onsight climber. if i cant onsight (or redpoint within a try or two), i move on until i'm stronger. thats my current practice, and i'm sure that will change as i progress in the grades (its already changing, actually).
incidentally, both of my projects at the moment are steep and are a BITCH to clean. but i dont leave my draws on them. i take them off after every day spent on it.
In reply to: If you don't project sport routes and don't want to, that's cool. It would be nice if the practices of people who did were either respected or at least ignored. Not everyone wants to play by the rules of the trad taliban.
trad taliban? thats a bit harsh. my only point here is that the OP was leaving a cleaner biner on to help him clean draws. thats unnecessary at best. there are other ways to clean the draws that arent that tough (as evidenced by the fact that the locals obviously use these methods because they keep removing his convienence piece).
you folks keep pounding on me about fixed draws.
i'm talking about a single draw on a route (or a single carabiner). in the world i climb in- that's booty. single draws/biners are bail biners, not cleaning biners.
that said, my personal beliefs can also be stated in that i personally do not believe in fixed draws on a sport cliff because i think they are an eyesore. i personally remove my fixed draws when i'm done for the day. however, this does not translate to me hating people who leave their draws up on a project- it translates to me not agreeing with it, but thats about it.
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dingus
Oct 1, 2007, 3:34 PM
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Ya know what's funny?
Tweren't no trad taliban (love that tag line!) what stole that biner, haha.
It was a no-respect sport climber.
DMT
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