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hiyapokey
Oct 5, 2007, 5:17 PM
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Your right they didn't "forget" anyone, they excluded a large group of climbers some new, some old, some young, and some unskilled.
By the way I don't know Sherman and perhaps he has his reasons, but working for the mining company that is bent on destroying Queen Creek doesn't sit quit right with me. I'm not entirely sure I want Verm leading the community, that said I'm not saying anything about his prowess on the boulders or what he has already accomplished in getting bouldering recognized.[/ducking]
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sidepull
Oct 5, 2007, 5:46 PM
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I think you've confused "leading the community" with "emergent acceptance." You'll note that he isn't on here promoting his system - it's simply been adopted.
Your best bet is to start a 8a.nu card - the french system starts much lower than the V scale (of course your feelings will probably still be hurt when you realize that only send above 7C or so end up on the front page and there's no section for gym problems ). Get all your friends to start 8a cards, start spraying french grades at your local crag and gym and soon everyone who's delicate ego has been damaged by the hate mongering of V0 will have their revenge . (why is there no smiley with devil horns?)
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hiyapokey
Oct 5, 2007, 6:21 PM
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sidepull wrote: (of course your feelings will probably still be hurt when you realize that only send above 7C or so end up on the front page and there's no section for gym problems ). ?)
I've been informed that I don't have feelings anymore. As far as French grading goes. Isn't that for jeune femmes?
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sinrtb
Oct 5, 2007, 7:36 PM
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I don't think negative inf would work because eventually you would end up with a completely vertical hole with no holds slowing you down. so maybe -V30 would be an open manhole, and rolling down the stairs would be like -V15, and walking across the like -V10?
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mr.rock
Oct 5, 2007, 7:54 PM
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STFU!!! instead of bitching online about how unfair ratings are to people who suck go workout or something so that you can send a V1. the problems at the gym i go to now and then doesnt have any ratings. just walk up to it and in 5 seconds youll know if you have a chance at it.
if a new climber is so crushed by the fact that they cant send V0 that they quit climbing then GOOD. who wants people like that?
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shurafa
Oct 6, 2007, 1:34 AM
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hiyapokey wrote: I get to be the first to agree with the OP on this. I started out bouldering because I'm too shy to find a belay partner. After two years of climbing I find V0- is tough and have only done a couple clean. It sucks to go up to a VB and not be able to get started. I have always had to work hard to get little in athletics. So I guess by everyone's answers I should just sit on the couch and get fat like I was doing two years ago. Some folks probably will flame me for agreeing with the OP, but who cares. I have learned to really enjoy bouldering and am glad that some gyms had the sense enough to set some easier routes. I see a direct corrolation of how much business a gym does to the diversity of their routes. My gym sets V0s very close to how they set their 5.10s on top ropes. They use the 5.7-5.9 nominclature to show the easier routes. They just switched to this and I think its great. I like the idea of X5-X9 better because it makes the statement that this is a bouldering route and will probably take some kind of specialist skill to complete the problem be it power, balance, toe jams, drop knees etc. For all of you that can't handle change. You should read "Who Moved My Cheese". For those who say just climb rainbow. I know from experience that climbing rainbow doesn't work most of the time. Its fun to complete a climb as marked from a real sit start. I'm glad the gym I started at had auto belays and bouldering comp routes less than 50 or I wouldn't have come back. To those of you that say you don't want me because I'm not a good climber, there are other things about me that make me valuable to the community. When a community integrates diversity it succeeds. The gym is where begginers go to learn this great sport. There's nothing wrong with having good feelings about an accomplishment while at the same time keeping it real. V0 should look like the crux on a modern 5.10 route. Make some routes harder and rate them V1-14. Make some routes easier and rate them X1-9. There's my rant I feel better now.
I believe a large portion of the climbing community fits into this category. I would have to agree that the X Scale is better as it sets it apart from top roping. However the existing 5.x system has the advantage of being familiar to new and existing climbers.
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shurafa
Oct 6, 2007, 1:46 AM
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hiyapokey wrote: What I'm saying is there should be a place for everyone in the sport. I realize that the elite group usually lead the way in a sport. The problem is that it is discouraging to flail away on 10 V0s before you come to one that you have a chance on. Any nOOb could climb an X3 or at least make a valid attempt at it even if he/she was climbing out of a wheel chair. I want to be able to aspire to climbing V10 so V10s should be available too. The problem with the grading system is that they forgot about the unskilled when they made it. If they had X3-9 then V0 would not need to have such a range and thereby as in your soccer analogy the goal post won't be widened as it is now. That's what the OP is saying and this is how it "affects the rest of us". Your V7 gets easier because V0 has to be 5.5 like as well as 5.10 like. So someone says man the V1 is waaay harder than the V0 it must be a V3. Eventually the whole system gets diluted except at the highest grades. As well as scaring away potential climbing advocates.
Glad to see that some people are getting it. Improving the grading system will make it better for all of us. Grade inflation is a real issue that I think most people are missing. Its more than just grade variation which you cannot control as the scale varies slighly from region to region and gym to gym. However the disparity at the lower grades is much more pronounced. I would say that is does not effect the higher grades however the V0-V3 grades are dramatically effected.
Adding an X scale would bring some much needed consistency to this.
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shurafa
Oct 6, 2007, 1:58 AM
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yanqui wrote: hiyapokey wrote: So here's my idea (OK, it's kinda of a joke): go with V-negative grades. A little easier than V0? Must be V negative one (write as V-1). This has the advantage of being an open ended system. Boulder problems can approach negative infinity in their "easiness". We can imagine serious discussions in the gym about the nature of noob boulder problems. A heated debate, for example, about whether a given problem is V-16 or V-17. I imagine overhearing someone claim: "that boulder problem is actually easier than my staircase at home, so it can't be V-37". And so on. Negative grades are one option as there are many many ways to extend the current grading system. However there are a few concerns with using negative. 1. Its less clear. For example a new climber many not understand the difference between a V-1 and a V1. Also what about a V-1- and a V1- or V1+. 2. You lose the correlation with the top roping system. I like the idea that a X9=5.9. I think it will make Bouldering more intuitive for existing climbers. 3. Psychology. This is not a major point though it is a controversial one. There are several options for extending the Bouldering scale we should go with the one that is the best overall. People wont like climbing negative numbers. Like I said this is a minor point but worth mentioning. Please dont make it the focus of the discussion. This is not about Ego its about clarity.
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shurafa
Oct 6, 2007, 2:06 AM
Post #84 of 241
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sidepull wrote: I think you've confused "leading the community" with "emergent acceptance." You'll note that he isn't on here promoting his system - it's simply been adopted. Your best bet is to start a 8a.nu card - the french system starts much lower than the V scale (of course your feelings will probably still be hurt when you realize that only send above 7C or so end up on the front page and there's no section for gym problems ). Get all your friends to start 8a cards, start spraying french grades at your local crag and gym and soon everyone who's delicate ego has been damaged by the hate mongering of V0 will have their revenge . (why is there no smiley with devil horns?)
You want to really start a flame war? In an ideal world I would love to see a convergence of ALL of the current grading systems into a single unified system. (If it becomes an Olympic sport this may happen imho).
Ideally the system would start at 0 (flat ground) and go up from there. It would be similar to the grading used in comps right now where a V1=100 points except a V1 would be worth say 1100 points leaving room for the X scale grades. So a V0 to be 1000 and an X9 to be 900 ect.
Unfortunately it is way way to radical ATM. Time will tell... I would love to look a back at this board 10, 20 100 years from now!
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matterunomama
Oct 6, 2007, 3:02 AM
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Got it. 
Thanks.
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sky7high
Oct 6, 2007, 4:32 AM
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EPiCJAMES wrote: shockabuku wrote: The gym shouldn't cater to gumbies unless they want their gym to be an amusement park instead of a venue for climbing. EXACTLY
Second that
Who said more people climbing was better for climbing, What's important is what people climb, not how many.
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porthillsclimber
Oct 6, 2007, 10:01 AM
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In New Zealand anything below V0 is graded V Easy (VE), V Moderate (VM) or V hard (VH). this seems to work well for us.
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roquentin
Oct 13, 2007, 6:58 PM
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I am one of the people whose ego the OP is trying to protect. A roommate I had 5 years ago worked at a climbing gym and took me there once or twice. I went climbing maybe 5 times since then, until a few weeks ago when I decided to start using the wall at my school.
Only recently did it even occur to me to start following the routes, because I am a noob. I just boulder for now because I don't have a partner and it's plenty fun for now. My background is in skateboarding, so I think it's fun to jump down from the top of routes, anyway.
Someone who works there suggested I try a V0 route. I had no idea about this supposed 5.10 = V0 thing, so I thought she was saying I'm weak and uncoordinated looking. I came back and tried the route and, like, omg, it was pretty hard because I have undeveloped technique and grip strength. I kept falling after the first 3 moves.
A week later, I have the route figured out, I'm slightly stronger, and my technique has improved. I have fun climbing and I'm starting to want my own shoes. What's the big deal, exactly?
I see it like skateboarding and learning to ollie. You're not going to get very far in skateboarding until you learn how to jump, and learning it will involve hours of time and probably some scrapes and bruises. Learning to ollie weeds out a lot of people who might otherwise be interested in skateboarding. I think people who buy longboards just cruise around are ridiculous, and that's probably how you guys feel when people complain that easy climbs are too hard.
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dingus
Oct 13, 2007, 7:19 PM
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shurafa wrote: In an ideal world I would love to see a convergence of ALL of the current grading systems into a single unified system.
That would not be ideal. That would suck.
Revel in the madness. Celebrate the inconsistincies. Sandbag, over rate, refuse to tell, spray all you want... if it was supposed to make sense WE WOULDN'T BE DOING IT.
But I know yall won't get it. Many of you are herd followers and the concept of rowing your own boat is so foreign to you that you wouldn't be climbers at all lest a lot of others were doing it first.
Mooooooooo!
DMT
DMT
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8flood8
Oct 14, 2007, 1:56 PM
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oh cmon dingus...
YOU MOO TOO!
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kletter1mann
Oct 14, 2007, 4:42 PM
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Alan,
TRC is sympathetic to the plight of the nOOb - within reason. But a lot of this discussion is academic cause a lot of bouldering terrain simply won't support problems that an absolute beginner is going to be able to do. First timers come in all the time and ask about getting started bouldering. It's appealing - no gear, no annoying belay skills needed, etc. We actively discourage them and steer them towards into top roping. Unfortunately for first timers, bouldering really is HARD.
We tell doubtful adult newcomers that they'll be able to climb if they can climb a vertical extension ladder. And it's true. But most beginners would be challenged climbing an extension ladder tilted back 20 degrees, much less horizontal. Those that could would be climbing some of our 5.8's right off the bat. Remember our "monkey bars" route up and around the arch? It's all huge, positive holds. What makes it an 8 is that it's inverted at the top and you need some strength to get around the roof. It takes little in the way of technique, but it still takes a lot of body tension and core strength. Strong beginners do it all the time. Those less strong fall as soon as it gets steep. They can't or won't tension themselves enough to stay on the wall.
This bears on beginner bouldering. Our view is that bouldering simply isn't for absolute beginners. It reflected in our walls. Most first time climbers flail on anything that's not vertical. A slab is even better. It doesn't matter what the holds are or what it's graded.
Also, from a gym owners point of view, vertical and slabs make for nasty unroped falls. It's one thing if it's all balancy little crimps. But big beginner jugs? I don't even want to think about a beginner taking a 12 foot slide down a slab - another reason bouldering tends to be more or less steep.
Anyway, our grading philosophy is this: 5.6 is the easiest in the gym. Birthday parties can climb them and we tell adults that they can climb our 5.6's if they can climb a vertical extension ladder. We don't try to match 5.6's with anything outside or divide it any finer (e.g, 5.5, 5.4, etc.). 5.8's and above are consensus graded by staffers and locals, most of whom climb regularly at the gunks, Rumney, etc. It's highly imperfect, highly subjective. We don't bother with a,'s, b's c's and d's cause it's a waste of time, grading "accuracy" is too highly dependent on individual climbing and setting style. Example - a regular who routinely sends crimpy, inverted 12's on lead got shut down by a vertical 10 up the chimney. he's incredibly strong, but he can't stem and he was pissed. We all had a good laugh.
When we opened, our bouldering grading more or less followed the V0=5.10 rule. We downgraded it significantly because so many people pissed and moaned about being shut down. At TRC they couldn't climb the grade they thought they were entitled to (cause of how their other gym graded), so the grading must be wrong. Poor guys, such fragile egos - but we caved and recalibrated downwards.
At this point our V0's are about as easy as the terrain will allow - big, grippy jugs. We have a few sub-V0's too - even bigger, grippier jugs. But we have a terrain limit. As you know, we have almost no vertical bouldering. There's really only a section about 3' wide. The rest ranges from steep to steeper with features all over the place. Even a jugfest under a 45 degree face ain't no V0.
So what to do? About all we can do is make sure that we DO have enough bouldering at the easy end of the scale. Please do give Obe a call with thoughts and suggestions.
-Dave
The Rock Club
http://www.climbrockclub.com
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dingus
Oct 14, 2007, 5:07 PM
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8flood8 wrote: oh cmon dingus... YOU MOO TOO!
My bro Angus (get it.... ANGUS>>> (haha))...
my bro Angus he grew up on a dairy. A dairy slave. Anyone familiar with the cycle of dairy cows knows well this form of servitude. Until he was old enough to flee the farm he was slave to daily needs of those cows; they have to be milked. Twice a day. EVERY DAY.
Angus? He can moo like a motherfucking cow. By god its errie, MOOOOOOOO. Just like a friggin cow.
I can't do it, I tried.
Sy anyway, me an ole Angus we done been climbing together for 2 decades now. And all that time, at the oddest of moments, out of the blue as it were.... nah, there's a better way to tell it.
Angus and I we went to climb a route called Hawkman's Escape, in Yosemite. Its a 5-pitch 'barely known' route at the edge of the vertical bowling alley called Michael's Ledge. This is on the Lower Brother formation.
You either have to walk up the lower part of Michael's Ledge to access it or you climb the very cool 3-pitch Absolutely Free below it for an 8-pitch adventure. That's what we were doing.
Twas the first time we'd been up there, on a faint recommendation and some squiggles in the guide book. The Lower Brother is falling down if you want to know the truth of the matter. It has lots of 'gray bands' like those stripes on El Cap; diorite. Diorite doo doo. It all lands on Rixon's Pinnacle too.
The two cruxes of Hawkman's Escape are up crumbly cracks through overhanging bands of gray diorite. otherwise the granite's pretty good up there.
The position is WILD!!!!!
So I led the first crux with trouble. Then Angus leads this mind blowing face pitch, 5.7, with ONE PIECE. I've since led it as well, and you can get 3 good nuts in if you try, and that makes it somewhat sane.
This crazy face pitch leads to the base of what from the valley is revealed to be a giant flake plastered to the wall. To us its a 160 chimney... in the middle of this thousand foot face. It was like magic!
So bing bang boom we emerge from the top of this chimney to be confonted by the 2nd crux, now we're WAY the fuck up there and its getting late in the day. 75 feet of steep crack lead to a V-slot move through a gray band roof. Yummy. I tried it and backed off after getting in 2 solid nuts though. Tired and chickenshit.
So Angus led through with his legendary endurance and disappeared into the void above.
The rope paid out for a bit. Then it just stopped. Nothing, not even a quiver. For a long time.
Then, bullet the blue sky, it came, loud and clear.....
MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
One of them fucking mountain cows! I smiled and whoo hooed back. I knew the route was in the bag then.
DMT
(This post was edited by dingus on Oct 14, 2007, 5:16 PM)
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8flood8
Oct 14, 2007, 5:43 PM
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awesome story
so that face i take it was 5.7 slab? how long was that pitch?
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dingus
Oct 15, 2007, 1:04 AM
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8flood8 wrote: awesome story so that face i take it was 5.7 slab? how long was that pitch?
Slab yes but real clsoe to vertical with a slight bulge or two, very stimulating. E Butt oF El Cap has a very similar pitch.
DMT
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cracklover
Nov 27, 2007, 2:03 PM
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Well, like it or not, looks like the OP is getting his way. A new system is catching on.
I'm a routesetter at the local gym. Just got an email from the manager, that said, in part:
Our Manager wrote: On another note we’re going to start using “E” grades. I’ve long thought of something similar, but this isn’t my original, it’s take from routesetter.com. Basically it’s a new boulder problem grading system for the easy climbs below VO. Presently we’ve lumped them all into the vague “VO-“ group. Instead we’ll start to use E grades with E9 being the equivalent of 5.9, E8 of 5.8 and so on. Many people come into the gym having never climbed before and are disappointed to learn that they can’t just hop on the ropes. We direct them often to the bouldering area and this grading system will make it easier for them and for the rest of us just looking to do easier problems. This will take some getting used to, but please be patient; in the long run it’ll make for a better system.
GO
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wax
Nov 27, 2007, 7:18 PM
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you should convince your boss to change the "E" to "P".
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shurafa
Nov 28, 2007, 2:02 AM
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cracklover wrote: Well, like it or not, looks like the OP is getting his way. A new system is catching on. I'm a routesetter at the local gym. Just got an email from the manager, that said, in part: Our Manager wrote: On another note we’re going to start using “E” grades. I’ve long thought of something similar, but this isn’t my original, it’s take from routesetter.com. Basically it’s a new boulder problem grading system for the easy climbs below VO. Presently we’ve lumped them all into the vague “VO-“ group. Instead we’ll start to use E grades with E9 being the equivalent of 5.9, E8 of 5.8 and so on. Many people come into the gym having never climbed before and are disappointed to learn that they can’t just hop on the ropes. We direct them often to the bouldering area and this grading system will make it easier for them and for the rest of us just looking to do easier problems. This will take some getting used to, but please be patient; in the long run it’ll make for a better system. GO
There is a real legitimate need for this system. I am glad that it is catching on. Now the key will be to standardize it so that it makes sense when you go from one gym to another. I have been using the Yosemite Decimal system at the gyms I set at with bouldering problems ranging from 5.4-5.9. This is equivalent to X4-X9 (or E4-E9 ect..). The bottom line is you want a brand new climber to be able to come into a gym and hop on a route and be able to find a route that they are able to climb.
Its an exciting time to be a climber! The industry is evolving all the time.
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olderic
Nov 28, 2007, 2:39 AM
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Ironically 30+ years ago boulder problems at the lower end of the scale were often grdaed with a YDS grdae. Gabe - find a Hammond Pond guidebook from the 70's for reference. The John Gill Scale (B1-B3) was reserved for harder stuff - beyond the reach of most mortals.
What goes around comes around.
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shurafa
Nov 28, 2007, 5:35 AM
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olderic wrote: Ironically 30+ years ago boulder problems at the lower end of the scale were often grdaed with a YDS grdae. Gabe - find a Hammond Pond guidebook from the 70's for reference. The John Gill Scale (B1-B3) was reserved for harder stuff - beyond the reach of most mortals. What goes around comes around.
I can imagine that as bouldering grew as an offshoot of traditional rope climbing and hence started with the YDS scale. I dont know why a separate scale was needed at all. I guess it would have been confusing trying to tell the difference between a 5.12b boulder problem and a top roping problem. So I guess it makes sense that they would branch off the system. Once again why start the scale at 5.10=V0. Any history buffs out there know why they decided to start the scale at such a high difficulty level?
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rockforlife
Dec 1, 2007, 12:35 AM
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just to put it out there A V0 is a 5.11a so if you cant pull it get better make up your own rout, have fun.
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