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rockmaninoff
Oct 13, 2007, 8:10 PM
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My last time out, my partner took a 40-foot lead fall with 3 pieces in. He was OK, and everything held, but if one piece of the 3 would have failed, he would have hit the deck for sure. I feel like we were both experienced placing pro, and that was what saved him. He placed each piece to anticipate direction of pull.
That said, are there any other experienced trad climbers out there that have fallen, and had an intermediate (not the top) piece pull? Has that ever made a significant difference in the outcome of the fall?
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coastal_climber
Oct 14, 2007, 1:20 AM
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Sometimes gear zippers, bottom to top. As long as the top piece is high enough up and holds, you should be good, although, you want all the pieces in for best protection. Your bottom piece should be able to hold a good downward and outward pull.
>Cam
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healyje
Oct 14, 2007, 1:36 AM
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If an intermmediate piece pulls it was either placed too far to the side or was inadequetely slung. Cams, nuts, anything - it doesn't matter - slinging is still important, and has more to do with the overall system/rope path than with the type of individual placement. Piece-by-piece you're building a system and every placement needs to work for and within that system. An intermediate piece pulling is highly undesirable, especially when it's the middle of three...
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stymingersfink
Oct 14, 2007, 1:40 AM
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If your top piece is the only thing between you and the ground, you're probably not placing enough gear. Granted, on many climbs well within your limits things may tend to get run out, but the practice of keeping at least two pieces of gear between the climber and potential ground-fall is a prudent one.
I've had intermediate pieces lift out after placing more gear above, but with the exception of aid climbing I haven't seen an intermediate piece pull as a direct result of a fall. Not to say that it can't happen though.
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rockmaninoff
Oct 14, 2007, 5:27 AM
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Aha.
First of all, I asked if anyone had personally witnessed a middle piece failing during a fall, not a gear analysis. Only my fellow man from UT, stymi, replied with a logical response.
Second, advice such as "as long as the top piece is high enough and holds, you should be good" is patently false. On a meandering route, there is no such thing as a single "high enough" top piece that will save your skin.
I agree that in placing pro you are building a system. Sometimes failure of a key component of a system can spell disaster, and in climbing I personally try to avoid putting my eggs in one basket.
This climb was a C-shaped crack with a long runout slab at the top. Pro was placed at the bottom, middle, and top of the C at available intervals. My pard fell at the top of the runout, and the failure of the middle piece of pro would probably have spelt his doom.
Advice such as "Don't fall at the top of a runout," and, "Sometimes gear can zipper," are not what I'm going for here.
Now that we have analysis out of the way, has anybody witnessed an intermediate piece pulling during a fall? What were the consequences?
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scottb
Oct 14, 2007, 5:46 AM
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rockmaninoff wrote: has anybody witnessed an intermediate piece pulling during a fall? What were the consequences?
Yes.
Nothing.
The piece that pulled was a shit nut that didn't have a long enough sling on an 'R' route. The route is straight up and down so the piece pulling had no effect on the path of the rope. Anyway, that probably didn't help you much, but that's what happened...
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rockmaninoff
Oct 14, 2007, 5:49 AM
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That's exactly what I'm asking for.
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caughtinside
Oct 14, 2007, 6:28 AM
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I've seen intermediate pieces pop. Inadeqately slung and set nuts. I was belaying. My partner took a lead fall, the top piece caught him, and the two pieces below that, both nuts, popped right out. It was sketch because the top piece was then really the only thing between him and the deck. One piece between him and the ground. There was gear in lower, but it wouldn't have caught him before he hit the ground.
So I lowered him and he re led the pitch. He set the nuts harder and slung them longer on round two.
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gramps
Oct 14, 2007, 6:32 AM
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What is this, a reading comprehension quiz? People are just trying to be helpful. Obviously an intermediate piece popping could add length to the fall if it is out of line with the rest of the placements. And sure, intermediate pieces can pop if they experience a sideways or upwards force during the fall, that they weren't set up to handle. What are you looking for here?
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healyje
Oct 14, 2007, 7:15 AM
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rockmaninoff profile comment wrote: ...I love the outdoor experience of climbing, preferring easy trad over difficult sport, though I enjoy both. I also revel in the technical aspect of climbing, and have studied climbing techniques for about ten years.
Really? You ask about the consequences of any random intermediate piece pulling on any random climb? And then claim to 'revel in the technical aspects of climbing'?
Would that be when the answers don't tax you? Or are you simply looking for a random answer to a random intermediate piece pulling on a random climb that has nothing to do with the climb you did or the next climb you will do? Or are you looking for permission, or for someone to simply say 'nothing happened to me...!'?
Any comfort you might derive from such pointless commentary will be entirely misplaced. It's a f#ckup when a piece blows and collossal f#ckup if it's the middle of three - especially when the third one has a runout on top of it - good thing it didn't happen.
As it was your bro was good or got lucky - I don't know which, but I suggest you save your 'reveling' until you understand exactly why your question is completely irrelevant to the next route you'll do...
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8flood8
Oct 14, 2007, 2:16 PM
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coastal don't you mean be able to hold a good upward and outward pull?
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8flood8
Oct 14, 2007, 2:21 PM
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CMon healyje, you are getting a bit excited and pulling that comment out of context.
he can revel in the technical aspect of climbing for 20 years and still not know everything.
Do YOU know EVERYTHING about climbing?
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fulton
Oct 14, 2007, 4:46 PM
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I concider every piece to be intermediate in a way--that is to say--I always try to place gear frequently enough that should the top piece fail, that I'm not going to hit the ground or a ledge. You know, gear does blow -- so I double up before a crux and after a runout. Per the standard mutually exclusive adage, this is understood as the "old" rather than the "bold" way to go about it.
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fulton
Oct 14, 2007, 4:56 PM
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You say he placed 3 pieces of gear and fell 40 feet.
From how high did he fall ?
and how far from the deck was he after the fall was arrested ?
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coastal_climber
Oct 14, 2007, 5:05 PM
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8flood8 wrote: coastal don't you mean be able to hold a good upward and outward pull?
Yes, sorry.
>Cam
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sspssp
Oct 15, 2007, 3:27 AM
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rockmaninoff wrote: That said, are there any other experienced trad climbers out there that have fallen, and had an intermediate (not the top) piece pull? Has that ever made a significant difference in the outcome of the fall?
If you ask a question that is within the realm of the possible, the answer is almost always going to be yes, it has happened to somebody. I'm not sure it gains you much, perhaps a fun discussion.
I had a partner that pulled an intermediate cam out on a wandering alpine route. It caused a big "zig-zag" of rope to shorten and perhaps added ten feet or more to his fall. He had a long sling in but his next piece was a long ways (20+ feet or so?) to the right.
He thought it would have held a straight down fall, but that the sidewise, up pull twisted it out. But who's to say? On loose alpine routes, the best placements you can find aren't always that reassuring. At least the piece he fell on was solid.
(This post was edited by sspssp on Oct 15, 2007, 3:30 AM)
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medicus
Oct 15, 2007, 3:33 AM
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rockmaninoff wrote: Now that we have analysis out of the way, has anybody witnessed an intermediate piece pulling during a fall? What were the consequences?
Yes.
The intermediate piece was no longer in the spot it was placed after it pulled.
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healyje
Oct 15, 2007, 7:24 AM
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8flood8 wrote: CMon healyje, you are getting a bit excited and pulling that comment out of context. he can revel in the technical aspect of climbing for 20 years and still not know everything. Do YOU know EVERYTHING about climbing?
No, I'm not pulling it out of context in way at all. He claims to 'revel' in the technical side of climbing, asks a pointless question, and then bitches at the answers he gets. And yes, after thirty three years of climbing I do know everything I need to know about climbing - why, did someone change it recently?
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majid_sabet
Oct 15, 2007, 8:15 AM
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[URL=http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/9/10/15/f_leadingm_c7ce139.jpg&srv=img39]
[URL=http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/9/10/15/f_fallingm_1fc3de6.jpg&srv=img39]
[URL=http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/9/10/15/f_falling1m_2fcdc42.jpg&srv=img39]
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reg
Oct 15, 2007, 12:00 PM
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if the route were meandering or ah bit of traverseing, i believe the main problem of an intermediate piece pulling would be the sudden gain of rope lenght which in some circumstances could put you on the ground.
also the tone of your responce to coastal climber was ah bit - testy - bitchy - snotty - prissy. lighten up bro.
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j_ung
Oct 15, 2007, 12:08 PM
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Of what use is magically-appearing protection if it just fails when you fall on it?
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j_ung
Oct 15, 2007, 12:15 PM
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rockmaninoff wrote: scottb wrote: rockmaninoff wrote: has anybody witnessed an intermediate piece pulling during a fall? What were the consequences? Yes. Nothing. The piece that pulled was a shit nut that didn't have a long enough sling on an 'R' route. The route is straight up and down so the piece pulling had no effect on the path of the rope. Anyway, that probably didn't help you much, but that's what happened... That's exactly what I'm looking for.
But, don't think for a second that what happened in either case is acceptable. Rockmaninoff, your partner, especially, was one piece from disaster, as I'm sure you're aware. One millimeter off on the placement. One chunk of brittle rock. One frayed cable. One under-cammed cam. Blah, blah, blah... Point being: while everything turned out okay, it is NOT alright for ANY piece of your system to fail.
I'll echo stymingersfink. Try not to have only one piece between you and the ground.
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markc
Oct 15, 2007, 1:23 PM
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rockmaninoff wrote: That said, are there any other experienced trad climbers out there that have fallen, and had an intermediate (not the top) piece pull? Has that ever made a significant difference in the outcome of the fall?
I have had an intermediate piece pull as the result of a fall. It was a nut that I knew would not withstand an upward force. I placed it to protect a couple moves before a good rest and obviously better gear. (I also slung it shorter than normal, which I knew wouldn't help.) The piece did what I wanted it to do, and the piece I fell on was bomber. On top of that, the route was protected pretty well below me. I was climbing a fairly straight line, and that piece pulling didn't have any impact.
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medicus
Oct 15, 2007, 1:43 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: [URL=http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/9/10/15/f_leadingm_c7ce139.jpg&srv=img39][IMG]http://img39.picoodle.com/img/img39/9/10/15/f_leadingm_c7ce139.jpg[/IMG] [URL=http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/9/10/15/f_fallingm_1fc3de6.jpg&srv=img39][IMG]http://img39.picoodle.com/img/img39/9/10/15/f_fallingm_1fc3de6.jpg[/IMG] [URL=http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/9/10/15/f_falling1m_2fcdc42.jpg&srv=img39][IMG]http://img39.picoodle.com/img/img39/9/10/15/f_falling1m_2fcdc42.jpg[/IMG]
The question was about an intermediate pulling, and the top staying in. Your assessment of the situation in question is wrong.
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microbarn
Oct 15, 2007, 2:03 PM
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j_ung wrote: majid_sabet wrote: [IMG]http://img39.picoodle.com/img/img39/9/10/15/f_leadingm_c7ce139.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://img39.picoodle.com/img/img39/9/10/15/f_fallingm_1fc3de6.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://img39.picoodle.com/img/img39/9/10/15/f_falling1m_2fcdc42.jpg[/IMG] Of what use is magically-appearing protection if it just fails when you fall on it?
Majid is just illustrating again that he has no clue what zippering is.
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