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desertwanderer81
Oct 29, 2007, 7:48 PM
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OK, so we've all come across it, probably multible times. A large group of climbers (maybe even repellers!) sets up 3 or 4 TRs and completely monopolises a small crag! You having driven for several hours to climb at this little gem are obviously upset.
The group shows absolutely no concideration and just goes on in their merry way.
This has happened to me a few times, and while I really really wanted to drop one of their anchors, I always end up bouldering or finding one route (out of the 5 I wanted to do) off to the side where they didn't set up, doing it and going home.
So the question is this, have any of you guys ever actually dropped a TR?
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reg
Oct 29, 2007, 7:58 PM
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i would not want anyone messin with my anchors - on the other hand at my local gem this also happens but not once has it been an issue cause a simple "hey mind if we do laps on your line?" gets a favorable responce. i'll do an easier one first in order to get to the top and chk their gear or chk first before walkin or rappin in.
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catskillshiker
Oct 29, 2007, 8:07 PM
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Almost...
I will ask if they mind if i lead up it quick while they change climbers. 99.9% of the time they are more than happy to let us pass through.
The occasion that I had an issue with was a group of maybe 10 people with about that many ropes on the cliff. I asked them if I can lead through on some of the routes that were being unused. The answer I got was their rope, their route until they finish. Now I didn't give a shit, racked up, and waited till they lowered off the flailing climber to start. HAHA..boy were they mad.
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desertwanderer81
Oct 29, 2007, 8:10 PM
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reg wrote: i would not want anyone messin with my anchors - on the other hand at my local gem this also happens but not once has it been an issue cause a simple "hey mind if we do laps on your line?" gets a favorable responce. i'll do an easier one first in order to get to the top and chk their gear or chk first before walkin or rappin in.
Yeah, on all but 2 ocassions this has been the usual response where people offer to share. On those two times however, it really does get your blood boiling. I put up with it because it wasn't worth the fight, but meh.
Anyhow, dropping someone's TR isn't really really messing with their anchors, it's taking them down completely :p
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vtrescuekid
Oct 29, 2007, 8:42 PM
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As everyone else has mentioned, most people I've encountered realize they have a bunch of the routes taken up so they'll allow us to climb on one of theirs that they aren't using. Always a good idea to check out their anchor if possible though.
Dropping someone's line/anchor, whatever just isn't a good thing to do. Yea they are inconsiderate, but they were there first and how would you feel if someone took your stuff down?
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desertwanderer81
Oct 29, 2007, 8:47 PM
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vtrescuekid wrote: As everyone else has mentioned, most people I've encountered realize they have a bunch of the routes taken up so they'll allow us to climb on one of theirs that they aren't using. Always a good idea to check out their anchor if possible though. Dropping someone's line/anchor, whatever just isn't a good thing to do. Yea they are inconsiderate, but they were there first and how would you feel if someone took your stuff down?
Well if i was taking a group of beginers out and had say two ropes setup, I would offer to take one down to let them climb :p
And as everyone else mentioned, this is what in fact happens 99% of the time. But there's always that one or two times where you really really want to do it!
I wouldn't, but it makes me happy to hear when someone else jumps in with their rack or drops a rope when a huge group monopolises on an entire crag and is not curtious about it!
They might have gotten there first, but that still doesn't give them the right to own an entire cliff for an entire day.
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catskillshiker
Oct 29, 2007, 8:57 PM
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desertwanderer81 wrote: They might have gotten there first, but that still doesn't give them the right to own an entire cliff for an entire day.
That is exactly what is seems to be. The group I had problems with was a church youth group. I would have thought they would have been the most curtious. My buddy had problems with a group of boy scouts. They said it was their liability if he climbed on routes they were set up on.
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shrug7
Oct 29, 2007, 9:12 PM
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Ya same here.... I have never pulled a rope...came damn near close a few times. Espically if the rope had gone up by someone else first thing in the morning and it was still up in the afternoon with no one still on it....
Though I do recall recently where I lead a climb to set up a TR for our group (the top was walkable I just wanted to lead it..). There was another rope about 10 feet to the left and around the other side of the buttress we were on. I did the lead, someone cleaned it for me, and then set up a TR anchor for the rest of my group, and then rapped down so they could all TR it. When I got down the other party decided that they had dropped the rope on the wrong climb and moved their rope right over mine.... WTF....
and yup...boy scouts and a hired guiding service...
::grumble::
end rant.
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desertwanderer81
Oct 29, 2007, 9:13 PM
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catskillshiker wrote: desertwanderer81 wrote: They might have gotten there first, but that still doesn't give them the right to own an entire cliff for an entire day. That is exactly what is seems to be. The group I had problems with was a church youth group. I would have thought they would have been the most curtious. My buddy had problems with a group of boy scouts. They said it was their liability if he climbed on routes they were set up on.
HA! You would think. The two times I've had trouble were with a paid guide group and a group of summer camp repellers.
Oh, and liability is a huge huge fear within scouting. However the group you were talking to was clearly clueless about this issue.
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binrat
Oct 29, 2007, 9:21 PM
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Seen some people awhile ago pull a route that had bomb proof anchors, and tossed them to the side just to make a shabby anchors for 10 minutes of climbing. The guy who had set the anchors told them to go ahead and use his, but they were total jerks about it. And they were from an outing club.
binrat
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dtew
Oct 30, 2007, 8:36 AM
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You're thinking about this all wrong by injecting the value-laden term "monopolize".
Consider a semi-equivalent situation: A crag has ten available routes that are taken up by ten separate parties, and you arrived later to find that nobody there would let you climb.
I'm sure everybody agrees that the first to arrive at anything generally has superior rights to anybody else arriving later. While it would be indeed inconsiderate for the existing climbers to just ignore you and shut you out for the rest of the day, you don't have any right to kick anybody off the crag just because you've arrived and want to climb. I don't think anybody will disagree to this moral logic for this situation, right?
Some might protest, "hey, that situation isn't equivalent, since dropping one TR from a monopolizing multi-rope party won't actually kick anybody off the crag."
No, that's only a justification that you asserting a right you don't have won't deny anybody else their rights. Consider that the moral logic is still wrong even if the one group that you manage to kick-off in the ten-group situation finds a way to redistribute into the other nine groups. The wrong lies in forcing people to accommodate your assertion of a right you don't have, even if they were being inconsiderate.
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desertwanderer81
Oct 30, 2007, 11:10 AM
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Have you ever been climbing at a small crag before?
If there are 10 sets of partners there, you get in line and wait at one of the routes that you want to climb at next and wait your turn, it's pretty easy.
A group taking up an entire crag is just being greedy, they're totally different situations.
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dtew
Oct 30, 2007, 11:25 AM
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You're totally missing the point. Nowhere in my post was I talking about any sort of reality. I painted a picture of ten sets of top-ropers that won't let you in as a thought exercise to demonstrate the morality of the situation, of showing that we do not have the right to assert a right that we don't have.
We do not have a right to assert our access to the crag when we feel that other people are greedy. They have a right to stay where they are because they arrived first, regardless of how inconsiderate they are to our plight. They do not forfeit that right just because they COULD make life more convenient for us. They don't have to.
(This post was edited by dtew on Oct 30, 2007, 11:26 AM)
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notapplicable
Oct 30, 2007, 11:35 AM
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Your position only make sense if the entire group is not revolving from one climb to the next and never take down any of the ropes. If they are acting as independant parties then ropes will get pulled when they finish a route because they will be off to get in line for the next. If on the other hand, when they finish they just switch with the climbers next to them and never free the climb for other parties they are infact monopolizing the crag because they are climbing as one party but not acting as a single climbing party does.
If my partners and I go to a crag and hang 10 TR's and just work our way down the line people would rightly complain because one party is trying to hog all the lines. I contend that a large group of people climbing as one party (which is almost always the case) often with the belayer never coming off line and a constant revolution of climbers moving throught the routes are in fact one party. Its inconsiderate BS behavior and when called on it (in my experience anyway) they tend to do that, look at the ground while shuffleing their feet thing which tells me they know they are doing wrong.
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notapplicable
Oct 30, 2007, 11:38 AM
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dtew wrote: You're totally missing the point. Nowhere in my post was I talking about any sort of reality.
You may not have known it but you were infact describing real life.
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desertwanderer81
Oct 30, 2007, 1:01 PM
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dtew wrote: You're totally missing the point. Nowhere in my post was I talking about any sort of reality. I painted a picture of ten sets of top-ropers that won't let you in as a thought exercise to demonstrate the morality of the situation, of showing that we do not have the right to assert a right that we don't have. We do not have a right to assert our access to the crag when we feel that other people are greedy. They have a right to stay where they are because they arrived first, regardless of how inconsiderate they are to our plight. They do not forfeit that right just because they COULD make life more convenient for us. They don't have to.
Man, I just want to hear stories of people doing what I want to do but wouldn't :p
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desertwanderer81
Oct 30, 2007, 1:40 PM
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dtew wrote: desertwanderer81 wrote: Man, I just want to hear stories of people doing what I want to do but wouldn't :p Oh. Well, sheeeet, why didn't you say so? Just today I revved my engine and swerved into a parking spot right behind some self-absorbed moron pedestrians who were chatting away and ambling along slowly in the middle of the parking lot lane, completely oblivious to the string of cars that had been creeping for minutes behind them, waiting for them to either get a clue or get out of the way. When the opportunity presented itself, I just HAD to do it. No doubt they were duly alarmed. 
There you go! Now I can live vicariously with the knowledge that jerks are getting their just desserts.
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GiantClimb
Oct 30, 2007, 1:43 PM
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"I painted a picture of two walkers that won't let you by as a thought exercise to demonstrate the morality of the situation, of showing that we do not have the right to assert a right that we don't have.
We do not have a right to assert our access to the parking lot when we feel that other people are greedy. They have a right to stay where they are because they arrived first, regardless of how inconsiderate they are to our plight. They do not forfeit that right just because they COULD make life more convenient for us. They don't have to."
thought exercised...but seriously yes, if someone left a post it note at the bottom of a bunch of routes that said 'reserved' which is all an unused rope is then I would drop it or or leave it in place and lead my own rope up past it...this has never occured though as everyone I've dealt with in this situation were happy to let me jump in.
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desertwanderer81
Oct 30, 2007, 2:25 PM
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j_ung wrote: desertwanderer81 wrote: So the question is this, have any of you guys ever actually dropped a TR? I have a lot of trouble picturing this leading to a relaxing, sendy atmosphere for the rest of the day. 
lol, yeah..... That and the fact that there are usually kids around keep me behaving. But it's still awesome to hear someone just leading up or dropping it!
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dingus
Oct 30, 2007, 2:40 PM
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dtew wrote: showing that we do not have the right to assert a right that we don't have.
Rights. HeyZeusCrimeinItaly, are we adding Amendments yet???
Go German on them mates, just set up and start climbing. Don't ask. Don't tell. Just climb. Don't use their gear, use your own. You DO NOT need anyone's permission to do this.
That way this silly shit about rights will never enter the equation.
DMT
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moditup
Oct 30, 2007, 3:52 PM
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desertwanderer81 wrote: There you go! Now I can live vicariously with the knowledge that jerks are getting their j ust desserts.
just deservt!
Sorry, I'm in law school, I think I've heard my professors use this term at least 20 times...
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markc
Oct 30, 2007, 4:48 PM
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dtew wrote: You're thinking about this all wrong by injecting the value-laden term "monopolize". Consider a semi-equivalent situation: A crag has ten available routes that are taken up by ten separate parties, and you arrived later to find that nobody there would let you climb.
As has been pointed out, these are not equivalent situations. When climbing in a pair, both members of the party are busy at once, and can only occupy one route at a time. Unless a team is working a route, they're not going to leave their rope on one route all day. Especially if you're leading, you're moving from route to route to route. Others can easily cycle in. Even if you stick with the 'first come, first served' mentality, the new people waiting on the route would have claim before a group that just finished another route.
In a large group, especially clubs or guided trips I've encountered, there are frequently more lines rigged than the group uses at once. (The lines are often rigged before the majority of the group arrives, which is another issue.) Lines sit idle, but the organizers don't want to give way to smaller parties. There isn't a chance to rotate in, as that group is camping on multiple lines and has no intention of moving.
I've found most groups to be accommodating to an extent. For those that aren't, I tend to prefer moving to another section of the crag. While I haven't done it, dropping someone's rope seems like a good way to get two groups pissed at each other for the remainder of the day. There are some spots I haven't visited on a weekend in years, as they're notorious for large groups. I save myself the hassle and go elsewhere.
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vegastradguy
Oct 30, 2007, 6:19 PM
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desertwanderer81 wrote: HA! You would think. The two times I've had trouble were with a paid guide group and a group of summer camp repellers. Oh, and liability is a huge huge fear within scouting. However the group you were talking to was clearly clueless about this issue.
sounds like someone bumped into the NOLS group out at Moderate Mecca recently.
with all the rock in RR, i cant believe this thought even crossed your mind, let alone prompted you to post about it....
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