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pedro_sandchez
Oct 31, 2007, 8:01 PM
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hey guys,
I've searched a bit but all I really find is open hand vs. crimp discussions.
I have been climbing heavily for a year and a half now nd for some reason I still havn't developed good open hand strength. I have pretty strong crimp strength at least in comparison to the guys I climb with. There is a route at my local gym which is nothing but crimps all the way to the top and of all my crew I am the only one who can climb it without problems.
However, when it comes to slopers and large open hand holds, I simply can't hang on. I"m trying to make the transition into 5.11 and I just cant hang on to alot of slopey holds on harder routes.
What sort training can I do to increase my open hand grip strength.
my current training consists of this:
climb 3 days a week in the gym and about twice a month outside.
run two days a week (usually run about 3 miles)
yoga one day a week
mountain bike usually once or twice a week.
on my gym trips I usually do a warm up route on a 5.9 or so and then climb 4 or 5 5.10 with an attempt at a 5.11 thrown in here and there. I then usually finish out the day with an endurance run up my favorite 5.9 plus by doing 4-5 runs to the top without resting (I just go up until I really can't climb anymore).
thanks for any help,
Adam
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paclimber12
Oct 31, 2007, 8:30 PM
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Try doing/making up problems where all the holds are slopey and open hand. Or you could try campusing open hand which i dont reccomend because it seems like an easy way to get injured for most people without really strong tendons
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cameltoe
Oct 31, 2007, 8:42 PM
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A hang board with open hand slopers on the top between the jugs?
or get a 'thick'pull up bar - get some drainpie around your pull -up bar - don't pull up on it just do dead hangs
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hopperhopper
Oct 31, 2007, 10:59 PM
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try to hang on your door frame without crimping it.
edit: typo
(This post was edited by hopperhopper on Oct 31, 2007, 11:00 PM)
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munky
Oct 31, 2007, 11:50 PM
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Playgrounds are your best friend. My suggestion is go out to your local playground and make up "boulder" problems in which you utilize the wide structures. The upper support beam of most playground equipment is very wide and its a great workout to monkey around on it. Also campusing around on trees are a good intro into building open hand strength. Like all aspects of climbing once you've reached the 5.12 level your best bet is to just climb as much as possible on as many different types of angles, holds, and movements in order to get stronger. Have fun with it and you'll get there.
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pedro_sandchez
Nov 1, 2007, 1:50 AM
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thanks for all of the input guys, I really like the idea of getting a larger diameter chinup bar to hang on. I'm going to head out to home depot this weekend to see if I can find anything that might help me out.
Sadly there arn't any playgrounds nearby (I live on a college campus) or I would totally give that a try.
Also, at my gym I havn't been able to find a route that is mostly slopers, it seems that most of the harder routes just have one or two thrown in and that is always what gives me trouble.
hopperhopper wrote: try to hang on your door frame without crimping it. edit: typo
I'm interrested in a more detailed description of this because I do alot of door frame chinups just for fun when I'm hanging around my apartment ( I think thats why I have such good crimp strength) but examining my door frames, I can't really see a way to get a good grip on it without crimping.
thanks again.
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hopperhopper
Nov 1, 2007, 4:05 AM
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what i meant was, try to open your hand up as much as you can when you hang or do pullups. not so much like this
but more like this
it works some different parts of the forearm and fingers, and might help you with the sloper thing since a big part of sticking slopers is pushing down with the distal joints of your fingers. there were some other really good suggestions here though so try different approaches and see what works out for you
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pedro_sandchez
Nov 1, 2007, 9:36 AM
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awesome, thanks for the pictures
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ghisino
Nov 2, 2007, 3:13 PM
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pedro,
holding open-hand stuff (slopers and pockets) is also a matter of balance, technique and in some cases core strenght (aka "body tension")...it's quite normal to learn it later than crimpers, and a lot of newbies actually try to crimp slopers and two-finger pockets...
so : the best way to get stronger should be climbing problems with open-handed stuff rather than training it on hangboards and such...
things you should consider :
SLOPERS
holding slopers is a matter of friction between your hands and the rock (or plastic).
key stuff :
-try to put a lot of skin on the hold
-exp. on real rock, look for smaller features "hidden" inside the slopers, like crystals, micro-cracks, and so on...they'll help a lot.
-find out the right body position. Slopers are very untolerant about this, they want to be pulled in a very specific direction or they'll slip under our hands...
POCKETS
holding pockets is a matter of skin/rock friction and of putting more weight on your tendons and less on your muscles...
-be careful with pockets...they can be dangerous for your fingers, you have to wait for your tendons and ligaments to get tough enough to pull them...
-try to avoid crimping and bending your fingers.
It's less efficient and more injury-prone than holding the same pocket with straight fingers.
-relax your hand muscles and let the edge of the pocket push on your skin and ligaments...you will have a sort of jamming effect : the more you relax and trust this fashion of holding the pocket, the easier it will feel...
...beware it's not easy : there's a trigger mechanism that tries to make your muscles contract even if you don't want it, to protect your tendons from too much load (and that contraction will most likely result in an injury). You have to carefully teach your fingers to push this trigger mechanism futher and further...it will take long...
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sidepull
Nov 8, 2007, 7:04 PM
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whatever happened to specificity?
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spacemonkey07
Nov 12, 2007, 1:22 PM
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hopperhopper wrote: what i meant was, try to open your hand up as much as you can when you hang or do pullups. not so much like this [image]http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/2839/crimpen4.jpg[/image] but more like this [image]http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/2407/openhandax7.jpg[/image]
The last image is a half crimp, not open handed. Maybe not as heavy on the tendons as the crimp. but if you want to climb open handed, it's not that.
Just wanted to clear this out.
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hopperhopper
Nov 12, 2007, 8:11 PM
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ehh...it's as close to open handed as you can get on a door frame. i know it's not perfect, which is why i suggested that he take up the other advice given as well. thanks for pointing it out though.
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tutugirl
Nov 12, 2007, 9:01 PM
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What ever happened to the maxipull...I have one we made but I see now they don't make them anymore. Here are a few pictures, the tape on the board is skating board tape.
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maxipull.jpg
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tutugirl
Nov 12, 2007, 9:08 PM
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Another look of the board is slanted to protect you elbows from getting hurt.
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maxipullinside.jpg
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onceahardman
Nov 12, 2007, 9:55 PM
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ghisino...i'm curious about this part of your statement:
In reply to: holding pockets is a matter of skin/rock friction and of putting more weight on your tendons and less on your muscles...
anatomically, muscle and tendon are two parts of the same thing, kind of like a winch and a cable. muscle is the winch, which pulls on the tendon, or cable.
physically, if there is tensile force in a muscle, that same force is transmitted to the tendon.
you MAY mean to hang on ligaments, ie non-contractile connective tissue, joint capsule, and skeleton.
REGARDING CRIMPING vs OPEN GRIP:
crimping involves extension of the DIPs, (distal interphalangeal joints, or joints at the end of your fingers).
it also involves flexion of the PIPs...
this puts an enormous outward force on the pulleys holding the flexor tendons in place. crimping is likely to damage pulleys.
(anecdote) henry barber, part way through his career, went to a zoo to watch how monkeys climb. he discovered that monkeys NEVER crimp. always use open grip. and monkeys can crank 5.12 dynamically and unroped, without a heck of a lot of trouble. (/anecdote)
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ghisino
Nov 12, 2007, 11:47 PM
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yup, thanks for the correction oncehard!
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bolderer
Nov 13, 2007, 12:10 AM
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if you can do fingertip pull-ups on a doorway that size, it isn't hand strength that's holding you back. try doing harder routes more often. struggle some. experience, body positioning and getting my ass kicked has definitely been the trifecta for me. that and doing antagonist muscle exercises. injury's a bitch, yo.
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jto
Nov 13, 2007, 7:17 AM
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If one can do that pictured half crimp hang on a doorway (½ - 1 inch wide edge) it´s also possible to hang it openhanded. Just make sure the doorway edge stays on.
I myself have never injured tendons when crimping. On the other hand I´ve had three injuries when hanging openhanded. If you´re not used to crimping you get injured easier when you do it suddenly. So get used to it. Same with all hold types.
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tutugirl
Nov 13, 2007, 2:32 PM
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Remember that the point of training is also climbing outside...sloppers do not come with crimp edges and when you are jumping for a small hold you don't have the time to crimp until you reset you hand so you better grab it open handed.
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atomix1010
Nov 21, 2007, 1:04 AM
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Use your open hand posisition to grab slopers. This will make you feel weaker at first but open hand grip will increase your crimp grimp but crimp grip will not make your open hand stronger.
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sidepull
Nov 21, 2007, 1:57 AM
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pedro_sandchez wrote: but examining my door frames, I can't really see a way to get a good grip on it without crimping.
This is part of the problem - you don't hang slopers because you don't look for them. It's a reinforcing cycle.
The good part is that you've discovered a weakness which means that if you train it then you'll improve far more than if you simply continue to crank crimpy routes.
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pedro_sandchez
Nov 21, 2007, 4:38 AM
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thanks for all the comments guys.
I started by talking to the guys at the local gym to see which routes were made up of mostly open hand slopers and I've made a project of a nice 5.11 that is nothing but slopers.
I found a 5.10 that is similar to the 5.11 I'm projecting but I can actually complete the 5.10 since it is easier. Ive been doing multiple runs on it between working on the 5.11 sloper route. I think this is helping me a lot and I'm sure my open hand strength is increasing.
I saw the biggest improvement this weekend though. I spent friday saturday and sunday bouldering in horse pens 40 in steele alabama. talk about serious sloper action.
Friday things weren't going well because like I've said, I'm simply week at slopers. But saturday I finally figured a lot of stuff out and sent a couple of v3's and several v2's with lots of failed attempts at v4's. (I know, low numbers but this was my first time bouldering outside and it was on problems which rely heavily on the weakest point of my climbing).
By sunday I was insanely tired and just played around on some v1 and 2's to keep up the practice, but I'm pretty sure I've got this sloper thing figured out (though not completely dialed of course).
I'm excited to get back to the gym tomorrow and hit my project 5.11 to see if the weekend in horse pens really helped improve my abilities
I"m also thinking of building a nice forearm trainer by taking a piece of 4" pvc pipe about 1.5feet long. Attaching a weight with a piece of rope and rolling it. The 4" pipe should be a large enough diameter to give me some good open-hand workout when rolling/unrolling it. Anyone think this is not a good idea?
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moeh
Nov 21, 2007, 1:02 PM
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atomix1010 wrote: ... but open hand grip will increase your crimp grimp but crimp grip will not make your open hand stronger.
I dont think this is true. In the last 12 month i got 50% stronger on my openhand 1RM but my crimp strength didnt improve at all. (1RM = maximum strength that can be applied in <1 sec hanging on a given hold aka one repetition maximum)
I guess you have to train crimp strength seperately.
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