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elvis
Oct 15, 2002, 11:43 AM
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Hi all
I bemm dragging what I tend to think is a huge amount of gear ( two sets of wild country friends 0.5-4 two sets of nuts half a set of hexs) up climbs and been finding that I hardly ever use my hexs I tend to use the friends more should I bomb the hexs?
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furryfrisbee
Oct 15, 2002, 12:45 PM
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Yea, you don't need them, send them to me so you won't be tempted to use them again! I'll put them to good use for you, just so they don't get neglected.
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stevematthys
Oct 15, 2002, 1:03 PM
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i dont even have hexs, stoppers, cams and tri-cams work for me
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pelliott
Oct 15, 2002, 1:20 PM
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You are going to get a fifty fifty mix of answers on this post. What people use on trad is highly subjective. I like hexes myself. I think they are bomber and they just feel solid. I have a full set of various cams, but when I have a choice I prefer a hex.
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cyberclimber
Oct 15, 2002, 1:30 PM
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Like peliot says, it is highly subjective what you use for trad protection. I use my cams more than my hexes, but not by a great margin. When I do find a bomber hex placement, I have more confidence in it than I would a cam in a bomber placement,,,it just seems so solid and secure. But if you don't use them, why carry them? Like the furryfrisbee said, send them on down to me and I will make sure to give them a new home and keep them from getting too lonely.
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holmeslovesguinness
Oct 15, 2002, 2:01 PM
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Like you, I tend to go for cams over hexes on medium to large placements, particularly if the climbing is at my limit and I feel a bit gripped. But, hold onto those hexes - if nothing else you can use them on multi-pitch climbs to supplement cams, especially at belay stations. And has been pointed out, it just doesn't get any better than a bomber hex. A good hex placement always gives me a lot of confidence.
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punk
Oct 15, 2002, 3:01 PM
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The best way for you to get better in placements and to climb harder… will be, using passive pro only (HEXES, nuts and tricams). leave your cam in the bottom of the climb or at home if u more daring and climb like this for a while. doing moderate routes and progressing to harder one, as time goes.
Within approximate 6 months time, u will have no idea how did u place so many cams prior to that, and u will be able to spot a hex placement from a distance…. Hex rules
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billcoe_
Oct 15, 2002, 3:14 PM
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Depends on the climb. Some placements are cam only, some hex only. Hexes are lighter.
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climblouisiana
Oct 15, 2002, 3:26 PM
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If you ever have to bail, leaving a hex will be better on your pocketbook.
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tradklime
Oct 15, 2002, 3:30 PM
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My original rack was a set of nuts and hexes. I then added tricams. My last addition were cams (SLCDs) and I immediately wondered why I ever bothered with hexes. In my opinion, cams will go anywhere a hex will go and a lot of other places a hex won't. Also, they are quicker to place and usually multi-directional. A well placed cam is every bit as bomber as a well placed hex. Some people just like the comfort feeling of a nut in a good restriction, same goes for a hex as it is usually placed as a big nut. Like others have mentioned it all comes down to personal preference, there really is no right or wrong answere, just opinions. However, if you are looking for an anti-hex support group, I'm there for ya.
Billcoe_, would you describe a "hex only" placement. Not trying to argue, just curious as I can't think of one. Perhaps it's been too long since I've climbed with them.
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bradhill
Oct 15, 2002, 4:04 PM
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I wouldn't say it's hex only, but slotting a big hex behind a constriction always makes me feel a lot better than a fully opened cam in passive mode. Even with full-strength cam stops, I feel less than confident about it.
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petsfed
Oct 15, 2002, 4:16 PM
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I don't own any cams, but I do prefer them on harder leads. They are faster to place correctly, although I like hexes much more. Hexes do have their limitations though. They don't like parallel sided cracks and to use their entire range (on each piece) often requires more brain power than you may have available when you're climbing. That and to get anywhere near the range of a full set of cams, you have to do things like stack them, which is terrifying to think of. Just like stacking flat sided stoppers only far, far bigger. It was something my dad showed me instead of using steel pipes and lengths of 2x4 as protection for particularly wide cracks.
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trillium
Oct 15, 2002, 4:49 PM
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Save your biggest hex to use as a hammer to knock pro out that's stuck.
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tradguy
Oct 15, 2002, 5:44 PM
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Hex hammer - works like a champ on stuck gear.
Hex-only placement - how about a crack that widens as it goes up? Your precious cams will walk up, open, and fall out. Hexes are far superior in such situations.
Sideline the second set of cams and keep the hexes. They are lighter, give added versatility (V cracks, bottle necks, slots, etc), and are oh so bomber. Plus the extra cams would fetch you more money if you had to sell them to buy gas or food or pay rent or something.
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tradklime
Oct 15, 2002, 5:58 PM
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Brad, I can see in a situation where a crack flares wider torwords the inside and flares wider moving up vertically, where placing a hex would be preferable to a cam in passive mode. However, they are both not very good placements as they both would rattle around in there. I'd rather place a nut closer to the lip if it's good rock.
Tradguy, put a sling on the cam so it doesn't walk. Also, a piece can be placed to oppose it. Regardless, cams can be placed so they don't walk. While you prefer the hex there, it's not a "hex only" placement.
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tradguy
Oct 15, 2002, 6:36 PM
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Cams with slings can still walk - especially in a V crack where the spring tension of the cam encourages it to move to a wider position, with much less effort.
If you put a hex in that same spot, you can give a solid jerk to the sling/cord to set it so it doesn't wiggle loose. Passive cams don't set like that, and basically just hang there, hoping not to fall out (fine for pockets, bad in most other instances).
I'll give you that it isn't "hex-ONLY," but it certainly would be "hex-preferred". Of course, by the same logic, hexes can be placed in parallel sided cracks too.
[ This Message was edited by: tradguy on 2002-10-15 11:39 ]
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tradklime
Oct 15, 2002, 7:46 PM
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Yes cams can walk, but they can also be prevented from walking when it's an issue. In some rock, hexes and nuts just don't set well, regardless of how many times you yank on them. They can pop out easily, but of course this can be avoided as well.
The question comes down to, as you said, versatility. If I'm going ta carry a bulky piece, I want it to be versatile. Hexes are essentially most useful as a big nut. Cams of the similar size will cover a much larger range and a much greater variety of placements. In camming mode, hexes are fairly limited in where they can be placed. They have a very small expansion range and require the the sides of the crack be very uniform over a large area. Cams are usually multidirectional, hexes rarely are, unless you find that perfect slot to bury one. Also, I know some super hex masters will argue, but they usually take more time to place correctly. If passive pro is really your thing, Tricams can be placed just as well in any place a hex will go and, like SLCD's, a lot of places a hex won't.
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offwidth
Oct 15, 2002, 7:57 PM
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If you're worried about carrying too much weight then keep the hexes and only carry one set of the larger cams.
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petsfed
Oct 15, 2002, 8:09 PM
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Placed correctly, a hex will always be multidirectional. "Correctly" may mean you have to place an oppostion piece to keep it from being pulled out by rope drap. In addition, hexes can be used similarly to Tri-cams, but do get proper training before you try that. Cams, being mechanical in nature have a different problem. The quality of the placement changes as the entire cam rotates in relation to the rock, such that in certain situations, the cam is only multidirectional if it is part of a system of placements.
So in summary, they both have their uses, but neither one is the definitive best for every situation. Carry the bigger hexes, 1 set of cams, and a set of nuts. That should be all you will need.
[ This Message was edited by: petsfed on 2002-10-15 13:31 ]
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tradklime
Oct 15, 2002, 8:47 PM
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"So in summary, they both have their uses, but neither one is the definitive best for every situation."
Agreed, however in my opinion, it is better to carry pieces that are better in most situations, ie. cams.
Placing an opposition piece is not always practical or possible. If a cam rotates in a placement, it's placement is not always compromised, it depends on the rock type and crack structure. I agree with "in some situations" but not usually. Also, this is one of the reasons a flexible stem like aliens have are so great, less rotation of the cam.
"In addition, hexes can be used similarly to Tri-cams"
How so... I'd love to see a hex placed in a pocket or anything with some sort of outward flare.
I'd much rather have a double set of cams than drag hexes anywhere, despite the weight savings. As the original poster implied, how helpful are pieces you never use.
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philbox
Moderator
Oct 15, 2002, 10:22 PM
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At one particular area I climb at hexes rule but in others I leave them at home. I also love the sound them cowbells make. At Frog Buttress on a still cool winters day they ring out from all parts of the cliff like bell birds. Kinda makes ya all warm and fuzzy, yeah this is a trad cliff, hear them hexes ring.
...Phil...
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mountainmonkey
Oct 15, 2002, 11:00 PM
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"Agreed, however in my opinion, it is better to carry pieces that are better in most situations, ie. cams."
Hmmmm... I disagree with your opinion. You have to have good practice and you will find that hexes are good with just as many placements. In general, people have the tendency to plug in cams without evaluating the condition of the piece - just hoping it will hold. Hexes are much easier to judge the quality of the placement.
"If a cam rotates in a placement, it's placement is not always compromised, it depends on the rock type and crack structure."
Hmmmm... true. It is not always compromised but why would you risk it. You should never count on a cam to rotate into the direction of pull in a fall (you can count on it as a directional but not to hold a fall onto it). Try wiggling a cam back and forth in a placement - sometimes it is ok, but more often the placement walks a lobe making it a weaker placement. Try it on something that opens upward/inward - a cam will easily walk and fall out, a hex will stay put if set properly.
Any one who says flat out that cams are better than hexes in all situations gives me the idea that they have not put enough time and effort to learn how to place hexes.
It really depends on the type of rock to determine what is preferred. On Crimson Crysalis we had doubles in cams and a single set of hexes and we constantly ran out of hexes but never the cams. We found hexes as a better choice for the climb. Indian creek - duh. Yosemite - cams are preferred but hexes are useful to supplement the sizes.
I prefer a set of cams, a set of hexes, and a set of stoppers for a standard rack.
casey
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tradklime
Oct 15, 2002, 11:33 PM
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"Any one who says flat out that cams are better than hexes in all situations gives me the idea that they have not put enough time and effort to learn how to place hexes."
I never said that. I said that cams are more versatile, cover a larger size range, and usually offer a better placement in less time.
Climbing into the unknown ie. a route I have never done before, given the choice to carry an extra set of cams or a set of hexes, I will always opt. for cams. Also, if I found that I hardly ever used my hexes, as the original poster stated, I wouldn't carry them at all (I don't, if I want to suppliment my rack I use tricams).
Weight is a very important issue. That's why I think it is an important consideration in purchasing cams and tend away from camalots. However, I would never ditch a set of cams for a set of hexes to save weight. I just don't see them to be as strong of a climbing tool as cams.
"a hex will stay put if set properly"
So will a cam, we covered that earlier. All pieces of pro will work if they are placed properly with the appropriate thought and experience.
I have stated before that just as much thought and experience should be behind a cam placement as with any other piece, including hexes. I would never say go with cams because you can plug and go without thought. Ridiculous!
I am going to sign off of this debate because no one seems willing to describe in detail what placement a hex will work and a cam won't. Or, how a hex is a versatile piece of pro than a cam. It's like the Forged Friend debate. Some people don't understand or are not willing to acknowledge the inherent limitations of the equipment. Instead they side with how the feel about the placement or how it looks, nothing factual.
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holmeslovesguinness
Oct 15, 2002, 11:45 PM
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"In general, people have the tendency to plug in cams without evaluating the condition of the piece - just hoping it will hold. Hexes are much easier to judge the quality of the placement."
I think this is especially true of beginners. One thing I will say about passive gear is that it almost forces you to spend more time evaluating your placement, especially as a beginner, since most beginners tend to trust passive gear placements less than cams. I'm still a novice trad leader myself, and so far I've never had a passive placement pop or wiggle loose on me, but just recently had a cam below me pop loose when it got an upward and outward pull due to rope drag. I had just plugged it in and not taken the time to evauluate it properly. I have become much more cautious about cams since then.
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petsfed
Oct 15, 2002, 11:51 PM
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Hexes work best when you have to deal with a constriction that makes operating the cam trigger difficult. That and they work well (if slung with cord or webbing) if you don't want the piece walking, but don't want to sacrifice a draw yet.
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