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ZackP
Dec 3, 2007, 4:01 AM
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Ok i got a delima here. the air force safety office on our base is making everyone wear a helmet on the indoor wall. Even if we are bouldering. Now im not going to enforce this stupid rule for the boulderers. I also feel a head injury in a gym is damn near impossible. does anyone know a site with satistics i could use to take to our base safety and tell them to shove the helmet issue sideways up their ass. Main thing im looking for is outdoor accidents vs indoor accidents. If a helmet was used or not. Any help on this subject would be awsome
PS i know there are threads of helmet or no helmet but those are more based to climbing the crag outside not some stupid wall with an auto belay system built onto it.
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phillygoat
Dec 3, 2007, 4:05 AM
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I thought this was going to be a rant against the Access Fund...
ps- please be sure to post the pics of yourself bouldering with a helmet!
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caughtinside
Dec 3, 2007, 4:06 AM
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phillygoat wrote: I thought this was going to be a rant against the Access Fund...
hah! me too.
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josephgdawson
Dec 3, 2007, 4:58 AM
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I would make an argument that only pussies climb indoors with their helmets on. I'll bet Marines dont boulder with helmets on. Maybe you should find some vids of girls bouldering outside without helmets and show that to the powers that be.
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flint
Dec 3, 2007, 5:30 AM
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Side step to let Majid shine his guiding light...
j-
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billcoe_
Dec 3, 2007, 6:30 PM
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I guess they don't want you ladies getting injured seeing as how your gov't property and all.
Wish I could help on your paperwork quest, maybe you can appeal to the dudes common sense.
(This post was edited by billcoe_ on Dec 3, 2007, 6:31 PM)
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rock_fencer
Dec 3, 2007, 6:33 PM
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do the marines use helmets to rapel?
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crimping_bum
Dec 3, 2007, 6:55 PM
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Its not uncommon for people who ride the short bus to school to wear a helmet for safety. As far as most people who don't climb, they might as well wear all the safety equipment they can get. And for those of you who don't feel the necessity for a helmet, just think of it as a fashion statement that can set you apart from your fellow AF buddies!
p.s. the idea of seeing people bouldering with a helmet makes me laugh my ass off.
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onceahardman
Dec 3, 2007, 7:24 PM
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In reply to: I thought this was going to be a rant against the Access Fund...
I thought you were railing against American Fork...
Thanks for your service!
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ZackP
Dec 3, 2007, 7:30 PM
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rock_fencer wrote: do the marines use helmets to rapel?
yes they do. those fucking things are heavy and strong. i read a story about one them having their head stuck under an over turned helo. the helmet saved ol dudes head from being crushed. this was in iraq and the helmet was a kevlar one.
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drm1st
Dec 4, 2007, 1:02 AM
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At our gym helmet's are pretty much for little kids who run down the hill into the walls. Hmmm...this is for air force.
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whoa
Dec 4, 2007, 3:19 AM
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i've bouldered with a helmet. it was really to make my kid not feel singled out for having to wear one. :-) but i dunno, i bet falling off a highball with a rocky landing you're more likely to get a head injury than on your average trad fall.
anyway, this has nothing to do with your question. i'm okay even for kids to go without a helmet in the gym!
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flint
Dec 4, 2007, 3:47 AM
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Make sure you guys use smooth plastic holds and lots of tape... I would hate to see my tax bought baby hands get a little flapper...
j-
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shockabuku
Dec 4, 2007, 4:33 AM
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One approach you might try is to contact other posts with a climbing wall and find out what their policies are. I know Kirtland has one (MWR) and I don't think they required helmets when I was last there. Also, West Point has a very large climbing wall run by their Department of Physical Education but I'm not sure on their policy. You might also contact a local gym to see if they have any info. on it. I would imagine that someone in an insurance agency has done the study but perhaps not since many places make you sign a helmet waiver.
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Jbitz
Dec 4, 2007, 4:44 AM
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When I was growing up if you wore a helmet while biking you could bet that your peers would make fun of you. Now, half the people in the U.S. wear helmets while biking.
I just can't help but make a comparison to climbing.
Here are some summarized statistics from Johns Hopkins Hospital on head injuries:
Bicycling accounts for .56% to .87% of head injury deaths. The largest group of head injuries, are among motorists. Bicycling is not the leading cause of head injury. (Funny, the government has not forced us to wear helmets in cars. They always seem to know what is best for us.)
Bicycling is no more dangerous per hour than taking a walk or riding in a car (and most deaths in those cases result from head injury) and much less dangerous than other common activities.
Since, 1991 the rate of head injuries per active cyclist has increased 51 percent as bicycle helmets have become more widespread.
It is believed that the increased use of bike helmets may have had an unintended consequence: riders may feel an inflated sense of security and take more risks.
How many of you take greater risks when you wear a helmet while climbing or get the feeling that you are safer?
Helmet or no helmet a person can still hit there head. Although, a helmet will decrease the severity of the head injury. Would you have ended up with that head injury in the first place?
Should we wear a helmet everywhere we go?
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shockabuku
Dec 4, 2007, 5:00 AM
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Jbitz wrote: Since, 1991 the rate of head injuries per active cyclist has increased 51 percent as bicycle helmets have become more widespread. It is believed that the increased use of bike helmets may have had an unintended consequence: riders may feel an inflated sense of security and take more risks.
Any info on the severity of the average injury during that same time frame?
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potreroed
Dec 4, 2007, 5:19 AM
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A very promising young climber I knew once (21 years old soloing 5.11) was killed while bouldering in a situation where a helmet would have probably saved his life. This was outdoors, of course, and has nothing to do with your post but I thought I'd throw it out here anyway.
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epoch
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Dec 4, 2007, 9:46 AM
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ZachP,
While you may think that wearing a helmet is a silly proposition and a moot point while bouldering or toproping at your precious gym on the Air Force base, please realize that the order for wearing a helmet came from well above your base commander's head. Long ago it was sold off that helmets save lives, hence the reason that military members wear helmets in the various facets of their jobs. Using military logic, yes military logic, we can therefore derive that wearing a helmet while participating in a high-risk activity such as rock climbing, or in your case plastic pulling mitigates the risk to your branch of the military.
I used to be a guide for MWR and we were required to have helmeted participants for just about everything we did. The idea is to provide the safest environment possible. Obviously you have a ton of learning to do regarding the military, esp the Air Force. Regardless of what stats you bring to your command it is doubtful that they will change their way. Statistics show that wearing a helmet in any high risk activity mitigates the risk of head injury. You're just not going to beat that one.
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epoch
Moderator
Dec 4, 2007, 9:50 AM
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Jbitz wrote: When I was growing up if you wore a helmet while biking you could bet that your peers would make fun of you. Now, half the people in the U.S. wear helmets while biking. I just can't help but make a comparison to climbing. Here are some summarized statistics from Johns Hopkins Hospital on head injuries: Bicycling accounts for .56% to .87% of head injury deaths. The largest group of head injuries, are among motorists. Bicycling is not the leading cause of head injury. (Funny, the government has not forced us to wear helmets in cars. They always seem to know what is best for us.) Bicycling is no more dangerous per hour than taking a walk or riding in a car (and most deaths in those cases result from head injury) and much less dangerous than other common activities. Since, 1991 the rate of head injuries per active cyclist has increased 51 percent as bicycle helmets have become more widespread. It is believed that the increased use of bike helmets may have had an unintended consequence: riders may feel an inflated sense of security and take more risks. How many of you take greater risks when you wear a helmet while climbing or get the feeling that you are safer? Helmet or no helmet a person can still hit there head. Although, a helmet will decrease the severity of the head injury. Would you have ended up with that head injury in the first place? Should we wear a helmet everywhere we go?
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gunkiemike
Dec 4, 2007, 11:03 AM
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Good grief! You're in the US Armed Services, not the local public high school. Do what you're told and stop bitchin about it here. I mean, if this is what you do about something trivial, what are you going to do when you're ordered to do something really dangerous? Like go to war. That is part of the deal you know. Yes, you might be put in harm's way, even killed. No, you can't piss and whine about that on the Net, you just have to suck it up and do your job.
(Contrary to this tone, I harbor no disrespect for the wonderful men and women who are fighting for this country. They are the bravest out there and what they/you do makes climbing look like so much selfish trivia. THANK YOU for being in the AF!!)
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climbingtrash
Dec 4, 2007, 12:00 PM
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chossmonkey
Dec 4, 2007, 12:21 PM
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caughtinside wrote: phillygoat wrote: I thought this was going to be a rant against the Access Fund... hah! me too.
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dingus
Dec 4, 2007, 2:15 PM
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Many moons ago I was in the Air Force. A good friend of mine was the son of the guy who ran one of those water ski demonstration parks in Florida... you know, the old-school strick water skiers the NYC retirees enjoyed watching.
His dad, him, his older brother, OMG they could water SKI!!!!11
Anyway, Gordon, my friend, was also in the Air Force. And he had access to the family's retreat spread on Blue Lake in northern Florida... a scant 30 miles from where we were stationed.
I larnt to water ski that summer.
So latrer in the year, winter in fact, Gordon got ahold of the family parasail rig. This was 1981, so the things were pretty new then.
So we went parasailing!
Only one problem tonto.... no water. So we went to an abandoned airfield out in the swamps behind our airbaset, tied the tow rope to the bumper of a 1973 Datsun pickup and went up and down the runway.
There was a storm coming in, lightning, the works. One of us, an air traffic controller named (I swear to god) STRIKER, was next to go. When he took off one of his guy lines was between his feet and a violent updraft upended him and he cratered in the mud from 30 feet up - head first.
We thought he was dead. We were all standing there looking at him when he moaned and came to. Smitty pipped up, Striker, that was a lousy landing, get your ass up and do it again!'
We all laughed, Sticker included. But he had several compressed vertebra and one crack I think. Fucked him up good and he missed a couple of months work.
We were all sanctioned in various forms, for this little 'stunt.'
Seems we damaged government property (Striker) - or more specifically, we interfered with Striker's ability to do his job.
It went into our PERMANENT RECORDS haha.
I got a Letter of Reprimand, and official You Fucked Up letter from my commander.
All because we went parasailing in a thunderstorm on an abandoned dry runway, haha. Fucking AF safety dweebs!
Cheers
DMT
ps. I was PISSED at Striker.... it was my turn next and I only got one run that day. Gordon took the rig back to Florida when we all landed in hot water - him most of all.
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but ill post some of other people bouldering with their helmets on just for the laugh.......
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