|
steinmizer
Feb 6, 2008, 2:09 PM
Post #1 of 22
(14282 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 16, 2006
Posts: 10
|
One thing I have never understood was in most videos and climbing clips the climbers are clipping the draws that are already in place. Is this considered more aesthetically pleasing for the camera, the route filmed after the actual send? or just because the rating is 14 or higher one doesn't need to carry draws on their belt anymore? I thought this was called Pink point?
|
|
|
|
|
taydude
Feb 6, 2008, 2:20 PM
Post #2 of 22
(14276 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 25, 2006
Posts: 531
|
I would throw a guess out there that the routes are so hard at that point that they can't waste energy clipping. Also it doesn't matter.
|
|
|
|
|
styndall
Feb 6, 2008, 2:40 PM
Post #3 of 22
(14252 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 29, 2002
Posts: 2741
|
steinmizer wrote: One thing I have never understood was in most videos and climbing clips the climbers are clipping the draws that are already in place. Is this considered more aesthetically pleasing for the camera, the route filmed after the actual send? or just because the rating is 14 or higher one doesn't need to carry draws on their belt anymore? I thought this was called Pink point?
Red point and pink point are trad terms.
Unless you're drilling and bolting on lead, you're not placing your pro.
Sure, putting draws up on lead is a bit harder, but so is climbing in roller skates.
|
|
|
|
|
ja1484
Feb 6, 2008, 3:10 PM
Post #4 of 22
(14218 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 11, 2006
Posts: 1935
|
styndall wrote: steinmizer wrote: One thing I have never understood was in most videos and climbing clips the climbers are clipping the draws that are already in place. Is this considered more aesthetically pleasing for the camera, the route filmed after the actual send? or just because the rating is 14 or higher one doesn't need to carry draws on their belt anymore? I thought this was called Pink point? Red point and pink point are trad terms.
What the? No they aren't. Not even close. They are VERY much sport terms and were invented along with the advent of sport in the 80s.
Clipping draws already in place is a pinkpoint, placing the draws yourself on lead is a redpoint, assuming this is not the onsight attempt.
Most sport specialists consider pinkpoint/redpoint distinction to be moot these days.
In reply to: Unless you're drilling and bolting on lead, you're not placing your pro. Sure, putting draws up on lead is a bit harder, but so is climbing in roller skates.
Agreed there.
|
|
|
|
|
krusher4
Feb 6, 2008, 3:13 PM
Post #5 of 22
(14209 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 17, 2005
Posts: 997
|
styndall wrote: steinmizer wrote: One thing I have never understood was in most videos and climbing clips the climbers are clipping the draws that are already in place. Is this considered more aesthetically pleasing for the camera, the route filmed after the actual send? or just because the rating is 14 or higher one doesn't need to carry draws on their belt anymore? I thought this was called Pink point? Red point and pink point are trad terms. Unless you're drilling and bolting on lead, you're not placing your pro. Sure, putting draws up on lead is a bit harder, but so is climbing in roller skates.
A quick history note: Gary Neptune climded the 3rd flatiron (Boulder, CO) in roller skates. Not sure the year or if he lead...and the wheels were welded.
|
|
|
|
|
petsfed
Feb 6, 2008, 4:03 PM
Post #6 of 22
(14165 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 25, 2002
Posts: 8599
|
taydude wrote: I would throw a guess out there that the routes are so hard at that point that they can't waste energy clipping. Also it doesn't matter.
This is totally the reason people leave their draws on. The microscopic decrease in difficulty that comes from not having to hang the draws. And not at all the MONUMENTAL trouble it is to clean the damn things for every bloody attempt just so you can claim a microscopic (and ethically irrelevant since the real pro is preplaced anyway) difficulty increase.
|
|
|
|
|
supersonick
Feb 6, 2008, 4:44 PM
Post #7 of 22
(14123 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 18, 2002
Posts: 157
|
No the pros do not place their draws on redpoint. The distinction between redpoint and pinkpoint does not exist anymore. Get over it.
|
|
|
|
|
chossmonkey
Feb 6, 2008, 5:13 PM
Post #8 of 22
(14091 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 1, 2003
Posts: 28414
|
Welcome to the 90's.
|
|
|
|
|
texasclimber
Feb 6, 2008, 9:44 PM
Post #9 of 22
(14040 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 19, 2002
Posts: 821
|
I have been looking for welded-wheel roller skates for climbing for a long time. Anyone know where he got them?
Also, redpoint/pinkpoint are not exclusively trad terms.
|
|
|
|
|
caughtinside
Feb 6, 2008, 10:01 PM
Post #10 of 22
(14026 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 8, 2003
Posts: 30603
|
Redpointing is only for suckers who fall and weasels with no style or ethics.
Our almighty pros onsight everything.
|
|
|
|
|
sevrdhed
Feb 6, 2008, 10:06 PM
Post #11 of 22
(14018 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 5, 2004
Posts: 923
|
This entire argument really depends on one thing. How do you define "Pro Climber"?
I certainly hope that we can get to the bottom of this very important discussion quickly, so that we can then return to the equally important "Difference between redpoint/pinkpoint" discussion.
|
|
|
|
|
rockclimbergabor
Feb 6, 2008, 10:43 PM
Post #12 of 22
(13975 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 18, 2003
Posts: 131
|
a pro climber is someone who considers climbing their occupation and is internationally elite in their own field of climbing. This includes making sufficient money off of climbing through sponsorships and competitions. Also no, being sponsored does not automatically make you professional.. neither does winning the $10 award at your local gyms comp. A lot of people consider themselves "professional climbers", but in reality, there are only a few. We could even argue that there is no such thing as being a professional climber because only very very few people (maybe 30 or so in the world) can completely live off climbing alone.
and yeah, people dont place draws on the redpoint if not necessary.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
robdotcalm
Feb 6, 2008, 11:35 PM
Post #14 of 22
(13932 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 31, 2002
Posts: 1027
|
For some years after Kurt Albert introduced the concept of redpoint it was defined as follows.
A route is climbed redpoint if none of the equipment is used to overcome the effects of gravity, equipment is used only for safety, and all movable protection gear is placed on lead. More simply, the climber doesn't weight the gear or rope and sets the gear as he climbs. For purposes of this definition it doesn't matter if the route was previously attempted in any style. As Kurt Albert, the inventor of the redpoint concept has stated, "Redpoint is a def¬inition; it is not a statement of morality." However, a moral issue is raised if you imply you redpointed the route but actually climbed it in another style. Technically, this is known as lying. Later the concept of pinkpoint was introduced. A pinkpoint is an ascent in which gear, such as quick draws or camming devices, are placed prior to the ascent but otherwise meets the stan¬dards for redpoint.
Eventually, pinkpoint was merged with redpoint. Thus if climber Joe were described in a magazine as having redpointed Impossible Blooper, one did not know on reading the article if the gear had been preplaced or not. When I contacted some magazine editors about this muddy reporting, the reply was pretty much along the lines. Hey, we want climbers of Joe’s reputation telling us about their FAs. We can’t upset them with red/pink niceties.
It kind of reminds me of recent presidents: “I did not have sex with that woman”; “There are weapons of mass destruction.”
This drives home the point that climbing is an extremely unimportant sport, say, compared to baseball, golf, football, soccer, etc. In these sports, technical talk is precise, e.g., “since they were going for the blitz, he went for the screen and got hit with a safety.” And there are officials and scorers to keep things honest in these sports. You win or you lose, and you don’t invent another definition of winning, e.g., “Yes, the other team had a higher score but we won since if it hadn’t been for a gust of wind the ball wouldn’t have taken a bad bounce.” It would be like Sir Edmund Hillary saying that he and Tenzing had climbed Everest and later reporting that they had stopped a 100 feet from the summit because of a storm, but that they would have gotten to top if hadn’t been for the storm.
How we do restore precision to simply state that the route has been climbed without preplaced gear. Well redpoint now means pinkpoint. We need a new term for the old redpoint. Possibilities: black point; gl redpoint (gear on lead redpoint).
My suggestion is plano. She climbed the route plano. That’s shorthand for she just climbed without weighting the gear, without pre-placing the gear, without stick clipping. Yup, she just plain old climbed it.
Let’s hear your suggestions. rc.com has a chance to make more precise the vocabulary of crag climbing.
Cheers,
Rob.calm
_______________________________________________________
‘Tis better to have trad and failed then not to have trad at all.
|
|
|
|
|
fluxus
Feb 6, 2008, 11:39 PM
Post #15 of 22
(13923 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 3, 2003
Posts: 947
|
supersonick wrote: No the pros do not place their draws on redpoint.
Correct they do not! That is, not since the invention of the DRAW MONKEY(TM)!!!!
The Draw Monkey (TM) is a genetically altered Gibbon clone designed to maximize the performance of the super rad, way honed, sport climber. Lets face it, in these days of seven figure sponsorship deals and international fame, pro climbers can't be seen doing menial tasks such as hanging draws and cleaning dirty shoe rubber!!
The DRAW MONKEY (TM) comes with these exciting geneticly advanced features:
-Their hands have been modified with shorter flanges for mechanical advantage on crimpers.
-Their digestive systems have been altered so they can subsist on a diet of Gu, Cliff Bars, or Power Bars depending on the pro climbers sponsorship deals. They can live for up to 6 months with no natural food at all!!
- Their vocal capacities have been enhanced so the DRAW MONKEY (TM) can provide encouragement in several languages and culturally adapted ways such as "allez" (French), "You're a Wanker" (British), and the classic "Come on you #*%(*#" (American)!!!
- The DRAW MONKEY (TM) is trained to respond to common commands such "place draws," "Pull rope," "forearm massage", "brush holds", "preen me" and "bend over"!!!!
-The DRAW MONKEY also has amazing PERFORMANCE ENHANCING features!!!!
-Its urine contains high quantities of human growth hormone, for speedy recovery after a hard day of sending!!
-its saliva is an excellent hand lotion with super moisturizing abilities!!
So if you are a pro climber red pointing at least 5.15c get your DRAW MONKEY (TM) Today!!!!
|
|
|
|
|
robdotcalm
Feb 7, 2008, 12:40 AM
Post #16 of 22
(13883 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 31, 2002
Posts: 1027
|
Fluxus you’ve given me another idea of what to use for the old redpoint term, a “no drawers ascent”, e.g., she climbed the route “with no drawers. “ This is an age-dependent test for understanding the double entendre.
Cheers,
r.c
|
|
|
|
|
climbsomething
Feb 7, 2008, 12:52 AM
Post #17 of 22
(13872 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 30, 2002
Posts: 8588
|
Would a member of the chorus please come in here with a T-rating or some clever algorithm or somesuch? This thread has gone far too deep without one of either...
|
|
|
|
|
camhead
Feb 7, 2008, 12:59 AM
Post #18 of 22
(13859 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 10, 2001
Posts: 20939
|
gawd, I hate this topic.
|
|
|
|
|
dudemanbu
Feb 7, 2008, 1:44 AM
Post #19 of 22
(13827 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 3, 2005
Posts: 941
|
I just think it's funny how people discern between toproping vs. leading on preplaced draws. Or toproping vs. sport leading at all for that matter.
(This post was edited by dudemanbu on Feb 7, 2008, 1:52 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
artm
Feb 8, 2008, 8:46 PM
Post #20 of 22
(13700 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 22, 2001
Posts: 17990
|
fluxus wrote: supersonick wrote: No the pros do not place their draws on redpoint. Correct they do not! That is, not since the invention of the DRAW MONKEY(TM)!!!! The Draw Monkey (TM) is a genetically altered Gibbon clone designed to maximize the performance of the super rad, way honed, sport climber. Lets face it, in these days of seven figure sponsorship deals and international fame, pro climbers can't be seen doing menial tasks such as hanging draws and cleaning dirty shoe rubber!! The DRAW MONKEY (TM) comes with these exciting geneticly advanced features: -Their hands have been modified with shorter flanges for mechanical advantage on crimpers. -Their digestive systems have been altered so they can subsist on a diet of Gu, Cliff Bars, or Power Bars depending on the pro climbers sponsorship deals. They can live for up to 6 months with no natural food at all!! - Their vocal capacities have been enhanced so the DRAW MONKEY (TM) can provide encouragement in several languages and culturally adapted ways such as "allez" (French), "You're a Wanker" (British), and the classic "Come on you #*%(*#" (American)!!! - The DRAW MONKEY (TM) is trained to respond to common commands such "place draws," "Pull rope," "forearm massage", "brush holds", "preen me" and "bend over"!!!! -The DRAW MONKEY also has amazing PERFORMANCE ENHANCING features!!!! -Its urine contains high quantities of human growth hormone, for speedy recovery after a hard day of sending!! -its saliva is an excellent hand lotion with super moisturizing abilities!! So if you are a pro climber red pointing at least 5.15c get your DRAW MONKEY (TM) Today!!!! 
|
|
|
|
|
joswald
Mar 12, 2008, 9:46 PM
Post #21 of 22
(13396 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 19, 2008
Posts: 64
|
But so is climbing in roller skates.
Anyone tried that?
|
|
|
|
|
angry
Mar 12, 2008, 10:36 PM
Post #22 of 22
(13340 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 22, 2003
Posts: 8405
|
fluxus wrote: supersonick wrote: No the pros do not place their draws on redpoint. Correct they do not! That is, not since the invention of the DRAW MONKEY(TM)!!!! The Draw Monkey (TM) is a genetically altered Gibbon clone designed to maximize the performance of the super rad, way honed, sport climber. Lets face it, in these days of seven figure sponsorship deals and international fame, pro climbers can't be seen doing menial tasks such as hanging draws and cleaning dirty shoe rubber!! The DRAW MONKEY (TM) comes with these exciting geneticly advanced features: -Their hands have been modified with shorter flanges for mechanical advantage on crimpers. -Their digestive systems have been altered so they can subsist on a diet of Gu, Cliff Bars, or Power Bars depending on the pro climbers sponsorship deals. They can live for up to 6 months with no natural food at all!! - Their vocal capacities have been enhanced so the DRAW MONKEY (TM) can provide encouragement in several languages and culturally adapted ways such as "allez" (French), "You're a Wanker" (British), and the classic "Come on you #*%(*#" (American)!!! - The DRAW MONKEY (TM) is trained to respond to common commands such "place draws," "Pull rope," "forearm massage", "brush holds", "preen me" and "bend over"!!!! -The DRAW MONKEY also has amazing PERFORMANCE ENHANCING features!!!! -Its urine contains high quantities of human growth hormone, for speedy recovery after a hard day of sending!! -its saliva is an excellent hand lotion with super moisturizing abilities!! So if you are a pro climber red pointing at least 5.15c get your DRAW MONKEY (TM) Today!!!!
Sir, I will gladly pay you $500 for such a beast.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
