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subantz


Feb 29, 2008, 4:20 AM
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shockabuku


Feb 29, 2008, 4:25 AM
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Re: [subantz] Trad vs Sport climbing [In reply to]
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Ego.


binrat


Feb 29, 2008, 4:26 AM
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Re: [subantz] Trad vs Sport climbing [In reply to]
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To fight is to be human. Some more than others.
I think that it really comes down to the area where you are climbing. I do both and have not really had any conflict with people about it besides climbing too muchSmile

Just my $.02

binrat


carabiner96


Feb 29, 2008, 4:30 AM
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Re: [binrat] Trad vs Sport climbing [In reply to]
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Cos sport wankers fucking suck.


krosbakken


Feb 29, 2008, 4:30 AM
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Re: [subantz] Trad vs Sport climbing [In reply to]
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subantz wrote:
O.K I have a question. what is the grudge between sport and trad climbers. We all climb and usually stay out of each others way. So why do we fight among our selfs. Shouldn't we all support climbing in general.


Im not sure why this comes up time and time again but whatever.

You want to know what I think? Well I think that Trad kicks ass but I have no grudge or hate upon sport climbers. But when I see a trad climber I do think higher apon him then a sport climber just because trad involves more mental strength and knowledge. And I like the fact that trad climbing leaves no trace behind and all that.

So there is my $.02 ha Wink


edit: oh ya and I forgot to mention sport climbers seem to have a bigger ego. Laugh


(This post was edited by krosbakken on Feb 29, 2008, 4:35 AM)


carabiner96


Feb 29, 2008, 4:34 AM
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Re: [krosbakken] Trad vs Sport climbing [In reply to]
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Pfft sportards can have their red bull and pimp juice.


krosbakken


Feb 29, 2008, 4:36 AM
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Re: [carabiner96] Trad vs Sport climbing [In reply to]
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haha very true Wink


mcernie


Feb 29, 2008, 4:39 AM
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Re: [subantz] Trad vs Sport climbing [In reply to]
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have fun doing what you like. those that talk sh!t are usually the ones that get caught up in only one discipline. those that are well rounded have no need to talk. their climbing, regardless of the style, speaks for itself.


rjtrials


Feb 29, 2008, 4:48 AM
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Re: [carabiner96] Trad vs Sport climbing [In reply to]
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hey chica,

i will hopefully be hitting the Rumnizzle again this spring. How about we get in on this tardVsprot climbing. You can ropegun for me at Waimea and I will do the same at the crag of your choice.

RJ


coastal_climber


Feb 29, 2008, 5:03 AM
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Re: [rjtrials] Trad vs Sport climbing [In reply to]
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It's the boulderers that are the problem.

>Cam


miavzero


Feb 29, 2008, 5:10 AM
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Re: [krosbakken] Trad vs Sport climbing [In reply to]
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krosbakken wrote:
...sport climbers seem to have a bigger ego. Laugh

Actually, the biggest egos that I have seen are those of climbers who make a point of always reminding people they are "trad" climbersFrown. These neo-trads are usually far cries from true trad climbers.


musicman1586


Feb 29, 2008, 5:41 AM
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Re: [rjtrials] Trad vs Sport climbing [In reply to]
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Most of the sport vs. trad drama stems from decades back when "sport climbing" as a genre in itself first started. The old ethic was that all bolts, if any were placed, were placed ground-up, on lead, and that was the accepted ethic, nothing less, anything else was seen to be in poorer style, or to lack any validity at all. When sport climbing started taking off as a separate discipline, people started to rap bolt and things like that, and those of what came to be known as "trad" climbing greatly disapproved of this, and many have never let it go. Another point of the conflict is that bolts are offensive to the eye and go against leaving no trace, another valid argument as well. This is a great simplification of what people see things so differently and why sport climbers get ragged on so much.
What follows is my opinion on the subject, which maybe will also open your eyes to why there is such a clashing of heads. I'm an ass-backwards trad climber. I started climbing in a gym, then got outside to sport climbing, but when I had my first taste of trad climbing I was hooked and didn't look back. So that being said, I don't have the long standing background in the sport as many of those who hold trad ethics high. With that said, I have come to admire and hold high the "old-school" perspective. Why? Because I think its the only thing that really gives the sport its value. To get a bit philosophical, you can't continue to devalue what it is to go through the process to climb a specific route. Let's take an imaginary example: take a blank steep slab that has yet to be climbed. Say you have several people who might go for the first ascent, and they all have different ethical views. Take first the old school "trad" climber. He sets off everytime, from the ground, bolts, hammer, etc. on hand, on lead, totally commiting to the fact that he has to get to a stance where he can install a bolt or he's going to deck. He gets a bolt in, and then sets of again, without any knowledge of where he might next be able to place his next bolt, it might be 5 feet, it might be 40 feet. Should he fall, he lowers off, pulls the rope and starts from scratch, every time on lead, totally commited to finishing the route, and putting himself on the line to do it. When he gets done with the first ascent, that route has alot of meaning and value to him, it was a true mental and physical test. Next you have the "old school" (or european) sport climber. He comes in and likely rap-bolts the line, but doesn't necessarily overbolt the route, he may space the bolts out, keeping it safe, but giving it a little adventure. Thus when he sets off on lead, there is still some commital factor involved, and he may or may not lower off after every fall, but there's still a sense of value in working the sections, in running it out. Next you have the generation of sport-climbers that trad climbers hate. One of them comes in and rap-bolts the line placing a bolt every 5 feet, stick clips the first bolt or two, if they even lead it first at all, and when they fall, they sit there hang dogging, try the moves over and over again in the safety of the 5 ft.-per-bolt safety net. Now look at the difference in what an ascent of this route would mean to this climber compared to the other two. The long-term value is far less, even if you just compare between the two different sport climbers. Now bring in the "cheating" sport cimber. He comes in, either letting someone else bolt the route, retrobolting it for safety, or bolting it safely for himself, and then goes in and chips key holds to make it easier for him. He does the route with relative, and safe, ease. The worth of this climb to him is drastically decreased even more. If you continue down this line, you can get to a point where jugging up a fixed line constitues climbing a 5.13. This is how I see it, what gives you the most value in doing a route in my opinion is sticking to the old-school ethic of full commital, even if the route is already bolted, there's a big difference between the ground-up always on lead style compared to working it to death on a top-rope. I just think its more personal and retains a greater significance when you've finished it. That being said, I also think that one shouldn't trample on the grounds of the first ascentist. If they put up a route ground-up, don't retrobolt it, if they rap-bolted it, even if that is contrary to your beliefs, don't chop their bolts, that's my opinion. Where this gets sticky is lines where natural protection can be had, but bolts have been put in instead, and this has much to do with local ethic, which is another long discussion. Basically you don't bolt a crack, but sometimes you get lines where the natural protection is few and far between, but still there (high-end grit climbing for example) just risky, and people bolt it instead to make it safe, as you can see this leads to even more conflicts between sport and trad climbers.
There's alot to this issue, but since nobody has given a real answer to your question I figure I'd throw in what I could, but this has been a grand over-simplification and things aren't so black and white, yada yada, so don't take what I said as a legitimate, complete answer, its something with alooooooooot of history behind it. Hope this helped though.


miavzero


Feb 29, 2008, 5:52 AM
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Re: [musicman1586] Trad vs Sport climbing [In reply to]
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Please indent!


jt512


Feb 29, 2008, 5:55 AM
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Re: [musicman1586] Trad vs Sport climbing [In reply to]
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musicman1586 wrote:
Most of the sport vs. trad drama stems from decades back when "sport climbing" as a genre in itself first started. The old ethic was that all bolts, if any were placed, were placed ground-up, on lead, and that was the accepted ethic, nothing less, anything else was seen to be in poorer style, or to lack any validity at all. When sport climbing started taking off as a separate discipline, people started to rap bolt and things like that, and those of what came to be known as "trad" climbing greatly disapproved of this, and many have never let it go. Another point of the conflict is that bolts are offensive to the eye and go against leaving no trace, another valid argument as well. This is a great simplification of what people see things so differently and why sport climbers get ragged on so much.
What follows is my opinion on the subject, which maybe will also open your eyes to why there is such a clashing of heads. I'm an ass-backwards trad climber. I started climbing in a gym, then got outside to sport climbing, but when I had my first taste of trad climbing I was hooked and didn't look back. So that being said, I don't have the long standing background in the sport as many of those who hold trad ethics high. With that said, I have come to admire and hold high the "old-school" perspective. Why? Because I think its the only thing that really gives the sport its value. To get a bit philosophical, you can't continue to devalue what it is to go through the process to climb a specific route. Let's take an imaginary example: take a blank steep slab that has yet to be climbed. Say you have several people who might go for the first ascent, and they all have different ethical views. Take first the old school "trad" climber. He sets off everytime, from the ground, bolts, hammer, etc. on hand, on lead, totally commiting to the fact that he has to get to a stance where he can install a bolt or he's going to deck. He gets a bolt in, and then sets of again, without any knowledge of where he might next be able to place his next bolt, it might be 5 feet, it might be 40 feet. Should he fall, he lowers off, pulls the rope and starts from scratch, every time on lead, totally commited to finishing the route, and putting himself on the line to do it. When he gets done with the first ascent, that route has alot of meaning and value to him, it was a true mental and physical test. Next you have the "old school" (or european) sport climber. He comes in and likely rap-bolts the line, but doesn't necessarily overbolt the route, he may space the bolts out, keeping it safe, but giving it a little adventure. Thus when he sets off on lead, there is still some commital factor involved, and he may or may not lower off after every fall, but there's still a sense of value in working the sections, in running it out. Next you have the generation of sport-climbers that trad climbers hate. One of them comes in and rap-bolts the line placing a bolt every 5 feet, stick clips the first bolt or two, if they even lead it first at all, and when they fall, they sit there hang dogging, try the moves over and over again in the safety of the 5 ft.-per-bolt safety net. Now look at the difference in what an ascent of this route would mean to this climber compared to the other two. The long-term value is far less, even if you just compare between the two different sport climbers. Now bring in the "cheating" sport cimber. He comes in, either letting someone else bolt the route, retrobolting it for safety, or bolting it safely for himself, and then goes in and chips key holds to make it easier for him. He does the route with relative, and safe, ease. The worth of this climb to him is drastically decreased even more. If you continue down this line, you can get to a point where jugging up a fixed line constitues climbing a 5.13. This is how I see it, what gives you the most value in doing a route in my opinion is sticking to the old-school ethic of full commital, even if the route is already bolted, there's a big difference between the ground-up always on lead style compared to working it to death on a top-rope. I just think its more personal and retains a greater significance when you've finished it. That being said, I also think that one shouldn't trample on the grounds of the first ascentist. If they put up a route ground-up, don't retrobolt it, if they rap-bolted it, even if that is contrary to your beliefs, don't chop their bolts, that's my opinion. Where this gets sticky is lines where natural protection can be had, but bolts have been put in instead, and this has much to do with local ethic, which is another long discussion. Basically you don't bolt a crack, but sometimes you get lines where the natural protection is few and far between, but still there (high-end grit climbing for example) just risky, and people bolt it instead to make it safe, as you can see this leads to even more conflicts between sport and trad climbers.
There's alot to this issue, but since nobody has given a real answer to your question I figure I'd throw in what I could, but this has been a grand over-simplification and things aren't so black and white, yada yada, so don't take what I said as a legitimate, complete answer, its something with alooooooooot of history behind it. Hope this helped though.

If you want people to read what you write, you might want to give some thought to the concept of "paragraph."

Jay


billcoe_


Feb 29, 2008, 6:15 AM
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Re: [jt512] Trad vs Sport climbing [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
If you want people to read what you write, you might want to give some thought to the concept of "paragraph."

Jay

I read it. Pretty well spoken.

For me, it's all good. I'm glad there are riskier lines, and natural, non-bolted lines, that co-exist in some areas right next to near overbolted routes. The last overbolted route I climbed at Smith I clipped every other bolt and it was great. That doesn't take away the fact that I like to climb.

Climb cracks.
Climb Face.
Climb Slabs.

Like it all.


Sin


Feb 29, 2008, 6:20 AM
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Re: [subantz] Trad vs Sport climbing [In reply to]
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I Have to say this....Can't we all jus get along?Unsurelol
Brothers and sisters, I currently climb sport, but I cant wait to climb a rock that is always left untouched. I guess its cause I beleive in the Rock gods. Picking up and wanting to learn trad as soon as possible. I guess its a moral issue with gaia, in my mind. Crazy
-Sin


lithiummetalman


Feb 29, 2008, 7:13 AM
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Re: [subantz] Trad vs Sport climbing [In reply to]
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There's always something for everyone.


fresh


Feb 29, 2008, 12:01 PM
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Re: [krosbakken] Trad vs Sport climbing [In reply to]
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In reply to:
But when I see a trad climber I do think higher apon him then a sport climber just because trad involves more mental strength and knowledge.
this is such bs. I know tons of trad climbers who are afraid of taking whippers even onto bolts. yeah, if you can run it out 20 feet above a c3 then you're hardcore. but the majority of trad climbers I know are unwilling to whip on anything. It may be smart but it's not what I call mental toughness.


zakadamsgt


Feb 29, 2008, 1:28 PM
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Re: [rjtrials] Trad vs Sport climbing [In reply to]
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rjtrials wrote:
hey chica,

i will hopefully be hitting the Rumnizzle again this spring. How about we get in on this tardVsprot climbing. You can ropegun for me at Waimea and I will do the same at the crag of your choice.

RJ

Yo Ryan - you want to hit up the OBED with us Atlanta boys the weekend of March 21? It's going to be sick..

Zak


tomcat


Feb 29, 2008, 1:31 PM
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Re: [fresh] Trad vs Sport climbing [In reply to]
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That's OK.Falling is not what I call climbing.


blueeyedclimber


Feb 29, 2008, 1:32 PM
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Re: [subantz] Trad vs Sport climbing [In reply to]
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Tradsters are jealous of sport weenies because they are strong, sport weenies are jealous of tradsters because you start talking about anchors and something technical and they stare at you like your pet dog who doesn't understand a word you are saying.

The climbers that don't care about the debate are the ones who do both. This topic is as dried up as an old man who can't find his little blue pills.

Josh


tolman_paul


Feb 29, 2008, 7:51 PM
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Re: [subantz] Trad vs Sport climbing [In reply to]
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It really has absolutely nothing to do with climbing. You can find elitists in every sport, fishing has fly fishermen vs bait, bowhunting has stick/string shooters vs compound, photography film vs digitial, and on and on.

Some folks get so wrapped up in the equipment and techniques they use that they loose sight of enjoying the activity they are involved in. These folks become vocal about it, and then they start getting hanger ons that ditto their sentiments.

I suspect that the vast majority of climbers just climb to enjoy the sport, but they aren't vocal about it, they are just out climbing.


t2stone


Mar 2, 2008, 10:43 AM
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Re: [subantz] Trad vs Sport climbing [In reply to]
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o.k. heres the deal... sport-weenies dont get the respect that TRAD climbers do cuz... sportclimbing IS alot safer and...ALOT easier (^: got that? tee hee hee


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