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petzl510
Oct 30, 2002, 3:57 PM
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My dad decked out the other day he was on lead helping a friend pass a belay test @ a climbing gym. He hadn taught him how to hold the GRI-GRI wrong. The guy passing him off told my dad to go up 30-40 ft and to jump when he was above a clip. Well he did and his friend locked the gate open on the GRI-GRI and my dad hit the floor.
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climblouisiana
Oct 30, 2002, 4:03 PM
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Was the gri gri threaded wrong? Is your dad all right?
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quickclips
Oct 30, 2002, 4:18 PM
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Wow, is he alright. I've seen a guy get dropped from about 15 feet. The belayer let go and held the gate open because, "the rope got to hot." And that guy was hurting. I can't imagine 30-40. I hope he's alright.
Chris
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marcel
Oct 30, 2002, 4:27 PM
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Hope your dad was ok! Sounds like the gym employee screwed up.
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mother_sheep
Oct 30, 2002, 4:37 PM
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Why would the gym employee make your dad jump?
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talonsofsteel
Oct 30, 2002, 4:48 PM
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a buddy of mine decked out at about 40 ft. he blew out two vertabre in his back, and the last i spoke to him, he's been in the hospotal for a week. it just goes to show the negligence that can happen with a improperly threaded gri gri and/ or screwing around. by the sounds of it he'll be fine and back into climbing in about 6 months. on that note, climb hard and belay safe.
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mtnsprts
Oct 30, 2002, 4:51 PM
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That is really unfortunate, I hope he is okay.
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coach
Oct 30, 2002, 5:15 PM
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I think if it had been me they would have had to take both of us to the hospital. Me to have my back checked and the employee to get my foot removed from his ass!
Climb On
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baker_ian
Oct 30, 2002, 5:17 PM
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just goes to show how quickly accidents can happen - even in 'controlled' environments.
anyway - i hope your Dad is ok
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gunked
Oct 30, 2002, 5:30 PM
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I'm very sorry to hear about that! I hope your father is okay and has a speedy recovery.
There are some gyms that require each climber to fall during a lead test. While I don't disagree with this practice at all as falling is apart of leading in a gym. I do sometimes question to "expertise" of the person giving the test.
Petzl510, please inform us as to your father's health and, when appropriate, the incidents, if any more, surrounding his fall. I believe the "expertise of gym employees" might be a topic worth exploring.
Again, my deepest wishes to your father and all affected by this.
-Jason
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offwidth
Nov 3, 2002, 12:00 AM
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I hope he is okay.
Personally, I would never take a jump like that unless I knew that my belayer was already proficient.
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astone
Nov 3, 2002, 1:19 AM
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Another gri-gri casualty.
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boz84
Nov 3, 2002, 1:42 AM
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TOTALLY ASTONE!
GRRRR at the GriGri.
My first post here was asking your alls opinion on the grigri, whetehr it was safer/better than a reglar tube type belay.
Then, it was basically split down the center with people who thoght it wasbetter or people who thoght it was worse.
If I have a new belayer, belaying me, FIRST I will TEACH THEM how to belay PROPERLY. Then I will hand them an ATC. Hell no will I ever, EVER, EVER hand them a gri-gri. IT BREEDS INEPTITUDE. IT BREEDS LAZINESS.
A competent (note: that doesnt neccesarily mean experienced) belayer can stop ANY Fall with an ATC. It's so beautifully simple, that it would take a COMPLETE MORON, to screw up using it (barring letting go of rope, which is why I specified competent belayers only).
The ATC is fool proof, whereas the GriGri is anything but.
I really hope your father is OK, which gym is this again, I never want to go THERE, considering its employees seem very UNDERQUALIFIED... Sheesh, so far I avent been able to get a job at one, and these buffons do?!
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youmeanupthere
Nov 3, 2002, 3:02 AM
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I am so completely and utterly opposed to people learning how to belay on a gri-gri. I'm sorry about your dad. gri-gris encourage laziness and irresponsibility. I know some gyms use them for liability reasons and i feel for the gyms also. they are stuck between a rock and hardplace. They are trying to appease the insurance complanies and make up for the carelessness of newbies.
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kmunderground
Nov 3, 2002, 3:56 AM
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My first day out climbing my partner showed me how to belay and we were on some easy rock (5.6). He was on a top rope and told me he wanted to downclimb from the anchor. So he's downclimbing (and i'll mention that he was a very experienced climber) having no problem and then he just let go of the rock to see if i'd catch him. There was a little slack in the rope because he was downclimbing, but i held him fine. I was a little annoyed that he decided to test me that way, but i guess he wanted to feel confident with me as a belayer. I'll also say he was only about 10 feet off the ground when he let go, so injury potential was pretty small. Anyway, i don't know if i would have jumped off of the top of the wall to test my belayer, but i thought what my partner did was fine. I think the gri-gri gives people a false sense of security. To me if you don't trust someone to catch your fall, then don't risk it with them. That being said, i think they are good for experienced belayers when working a project where falling is likely to happen and there's going to be a lot of hangdogging. I'll never own one, though.
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meataxe
Nov 3, 2002, 4:12 AM
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The gym I've gone to is all gri gri for TR, although people use ATC or whatever their personal choice is for lead climbing. I haven't had bad experience with the gri gri (or much climbing experience at all for that matter). However, when given a choice, I would tend to pick the simplest (ie. ATC). A more complex device gives people more chances to freeze up and make a mistake IMHO.
I love to watch "Junkyard Wars" on TV and the lesson learned from that show is that simple and strong usually wins the competition. Fancy stuff usually breaks.
I hope you father is OK (back to the original subject.)
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wv5ten
Nov 3, 2002, 6:15 PM
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wow, im sorry to hear that, i hope everything is ok.
At our gym, people are required to catch 2 announced falls, and two unannounced falls but so far nothing has happened like that.
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lox
Nov 3, 2002, 7:28 PM
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Quote:The ATC is fool proof
I think the laws of physics prove you wrong on this count, buddy.
This is PILOT ERROR.
Yes, it sucked that your dad decked, but it is ENTIRELY THE BELAYERS FAULT.
And therefore, some responsibility falls on whoever taught him the action.
There is no guarantee that the same idiot who was belaying Dad WOULDN'T have just let his brake hand off using the ATC, decking the guy anyway.
It's all only as safe as the person operating it... it is just gear.
Do not blame the gear.
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boz84
Nov 3, 2002, 7:51 PM
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Another GREAT contribution by smokintoomuchcrack.
The ATC IS fool proof. MEANING: Someone taught how to correctly use that gear, even a FOOL, can belay properly. Not so with the grigri. The gri-gri, in its complexity in deisgn AND use, can cause accidents that was described in this post.
The GriGri gives an ILLUSION of safety, in that by its mechanical and physical properties, if used correctly will automatically hold the climber in the event of a fall. But it obviously does NOT DO THIS ALL THE TIME. There are NUMEROUS cases of people falling when the GRIGRI failed them. You can control human error much more than you can control the failure of the gri-gri. (Note, threading teh gri-gri backwards, for the sake of argument, is the gri-gris fault, due to its complexity.)
If you TEACH your belayer the PROPER skills before having taking them out to the rock, we would say much fewer belay related injuries and deaths, END OF STORY.
Over the course of its existence, I believe i can safely make the assumption that a Gri-Gri was used the same amount or more often when an injury or death was caused by something going wrong with the belay, mechanical or user-error. So where is the safety in this?
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dustinap
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Nov 3, 2002, 9:31 PM
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I'm sorry to hear about your dad, but the grigri isn't at fault. Your dad shouldn't have let the guy belay him if he didn't know how to use a grigri. The guy at the gym should have been backing him up. I love my grigri, it has never failed me, except when belaying 40 lbs kids on topropes. Only then has the cam not engaged all the way. It was no problem to hold the fall either.
My friend asked a petzl rep and he said that the grigri backthreaded should give as much friction as an ATC. I would not suggest backthreading your grigri, but that is something to consider. Two times have I had a belayer hold the cam down while I've fallen. Both times my falls have been arrested. The rope slides thru the grigri much slower if you hold the cam down. One of these falls left minor rope burn, the other fall was arrested with no problem. I've never had a problem with holding the cam down.
[ This Message was edited by: dustinap on 2002-11-03 13:36 ]
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moeman
Nov 3, 2002, 9:40 PM
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Two things that went wrong--- both seem to be the gym's fault.
1: Why did they do the test fall from 40 feet??? Twenty feet would have the same effect by greatly reuce risk of injury.
2: What kind of an idiot gives a newbie a gri gri? Use ATCs they're simpler easier and safer.
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lox
Nov 4, 2002, 12:57 AM
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Seriously... when you say "an ATC is foolproof WITH PROPER TRAINING".. well, that statement can be made about the Gri Gri as well.
Physics do not fail, and the GriGri works on solid physical principle. If USED CORRECTLY, it too, is foolproof.
The problem is PILOT ERROR.
Don't blame the GriGri.
Think like this: Is it the ALCOHOL's fault the drunk driver exsits, or is it BAD JUDGEMENT on the person ?
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sparky
Nov 4, 2002, 2:17 AM
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I've seen my freind let his buddy bottom out from about fifty feet because he got a friction burn and let go of the rope, i have no idea how he walked away
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boz84
Nov 4, 2002, 2:54 AM
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No, its not FOOLPROOF with proper training.
You can teach a fool how to use a grigri.
But he's still a fool, and will thread it backwards, and not fully understand the leveer system, thinkig pulling on it locks it.
You teach someone, even a FOOL, how to use an ATC, and yes besides letting go of the rope, there is nothing he can do that will deck the climber.
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kmae
Nov 4, 2002, 3:45 AM
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petz510 - how is your Dad??? Is he OK?
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