So you like your gear to be outsourced to distribute the footprint?
:::prepare for post hijackage:::
Yeah...I suppose so. Maybe we should outsource making some climbing gear to Afganistan or Iraq. Maybe it would give them something better to work on than IEDs to kill American soldiers or think about ways to attack the US.
I'd easily pay the extra $5 for labor to have a C4 made in the US. I don't mind buying EU products either, because at least their trade practices are fair
I'd easily pay the extra $5 for labor to have a C4 made in the US. I don't mind buying EU products either, because at least their trade practices are fair
Yeah, but if you make a cam factory in the EU, they'll pay you to make them, then they'll pay you to burn most of them, then they'll take the stuff you never burnt and put it in a big hole in the ground to rot, then they'll pay you not to make them, then they'll take all the cam making kit, move it to a chicken farm, and get the cam makers to mind the chickens. Then we have a bunch of chickens farmers making our cams in a dodgy location, and we're all fucked.
Do you realize that only about 1/10 of the cost of any climbing / outdoor sports stuff is labor? The real costs and environmental impacts are from the manufacture of the raw materials. Do you care or even know where the material inputs are from in your climbing gear? Would you rather have something made from materials manufactured in the USA and sewn together (for example... ) in Turkey or something made from raw materials manufactured in the PRC and sewn together in the USA?
extremeactuary wrote:
There are only two reasons why we outsource:
1. To circumvent minimum wage and labor laws. ...
2. To circumvent higher pollution standards. ...
Um. In my professional experience, I don't think so.
In the sewn products business, you outsource because there's only one place (East Asia) that has lots of factories doing the work to the highest standards. Look, I guess most people haven't gotten the memo, but the batch manufactured sewn products business in the USA and Canada is more or less toast. In real terms, it's only the military. I'm busy cutting fabric right now, or I'd get into it more, but at least in batch manufactured sewn products, I can get better quality, better timeliness and it happens to be possible in East Asia. It's not just the factories or sweatshops that you think of, it's the upstream manufacturers of tooling, the fabric mills and of course trained, highly skilled workers.
It's a simple actuarial problem; no tools, no workers, no production...
chossmonkey wrote:
They make more profit, we still pay the same or more for the product and quality normally takes a hit.
Or, as I think is more likely, companies outsourcing try desperately to hold the line on costs so the cheap bastards they sell stuff to don't stop buying the products...
(This post was edited by crackers on Jul 10, 2008, 2:44 PM)
Absolutely I care where a particular piece of gear is made. All sorts of factors go into that consideraton.
For example, I don't mind buyiuung gear made in France, Italy or UK. I don't mind buying US or in a lot of cases Mexican made gear. I (gasp!!!) don't even mind buying CANADIAN (I know.... I know.... ) so long as it isn't made of gold like apparently that stuff from the dead bird company is.
I avoid China made gear but for softgoods that's bloody hard to do. Ditto India.
But I wouldn't knowingly buy hard goods from either of those countries, nor would I knowingly do business with a US firm that oursources formerly US provided labor to either country or anything similar.
For example if I found out BD or Omega Pacific, just to pick two random examples, had outsourced cam production to Bangladesh I'd pretty much stop doing business with them; entirely.
DMT
You do know that C4's are made in China right?
You do know I don't own any C4s right? You do know I haven't bought BD anything for quite some time right?
DMT
(This post was edited by dingus on Jul 10, 2008, 2:46 PM)
1. To circumvent minimum wage and labor laws. We believe that US workers should receive a decent wage for working and should have limited hours and proper working conditions. But, we could care less how people in foreign countries are treated.
Actually, outsourcing improves their lives not lowers it. It gives them jobs and technological expertise that will eventually turn into foreign companies that compete with American firms. This improves their lives, not lowers their standard of living.
In reply to:
2. To circumvent higher pollution standards. We want to keep our environment nice and clean so we send our factories overseas to poison somebody else's population.
Everyone has to start somewhere. But yeah, I'd rather have clean air than dirty air.
In reply to:
By outsourcing, you are implying that people in foreign countries shouldn't have the same basic rights as your own citizens. Maybe some of you feel this way, I don't.
Actually, outsourcing improves their lives not lowers it. It gives them jobs and technological expertise that will eventually turn into foreign companies that compete with American firms. This improves their lives, not lowers their standard of living.
IMO, this is a very good point.
The literature of economic development figured out that sweatshops were the best thing that ever happened to an economy a looooong time ago. It's one of the only things in development economics that I'm aware of that feminists, communists, capitalists, libertarians, republicans, democrats, and even the EU agricultural rules committee agrees on...
Absolutely I care where a particular piece of gear is made. All sorts of factors go into that consideraton.
For example, I don't mind buyiuung gear made in France, Italy or UK. I don't mind buying US or in a lot of cases Mexican made gear. I (gasp!!!) don't even mind buying CANADIAN (I know.... I know.... ) so long as it isn't made of gold like apparently that stuff from the dead bird company is.
I avoid China made gear but for softgoods that's bloody hard to do. Ditto India.
But I wouldn't knowingly buy hard goods from either of those countries, nor would I knowingly do business with a US firm that oursources formerly US provided labor to either country or anything similar.
For example if I found out BD or Omega Pacific, just to pick two random examples, had outsourced cam production to Bangladesh I'd pretty much stop doing business with them; entirely.
DMT
Arc'teryx is mostly made in china.
As is more and more gear.
Not that quality gear can't be made in China, but it leaves a bad taste in my mouth when companies that pride themselves on this and that sell out to bump up their profit a little.
They make more profit, we still pay the same or more for the product and quality normally takes a hit.
Considering the exorbitant pricing scheme Arc'teryx employs, it's a little disconcerting they make their wares in China. I've never figured what makes skeleton bird worth so much more than every other synonymous product; the profit certainly isn't supporting the wages of its workers.
Absolutely I care where a particular piece of gear is made. All sorts of factors go into that consideraton.
For example, I don't mind buyiuung gear made in France, Italy or UK. I don't mind buying US or in a lot of cases Mexican made gear. I (gasp!!!) don't even mind buying CANADIAN (I know.... I know.... ) so long as it isn't made of gold like apparently that stuff from the dead bird company is.
I avoid China made gear but for softgoods that's bloody hard to do. Ditto India.
But I wouldn't knowingly buy hard goods from either of those countries, nor would I knowingly do business with a US firm that oursources formerly US provided labor to either country or anything similar.
For example if I found out BD or Omega Pacific, just to pick two random examples, had outsourced cam production to Bangladesh I'd pretty much stop doing business with them; entirely.
DMT
Arc'teryx is mostly made in china.
As is more and more gear.
Not that quality gear can't be made in China, but it leaves a bad taste in my mouth when companies that pride themselves on this and that sell out to bump up their profit a little.
They make more profit, we still pay the same or more for the product and quality normally takes a hit.
Considering the exorbitant pricing scheme Arc'teryx employs, it's a little disconcerting they make their wares in China. I've never figured what makes skeleton bird worth so much more than every other synonymous product; the profit certainly isn't supporting the wages of its workers.
A few years ago I bought a pair of their shorts on clearance. Still ridiculously expensive. But the best pair of shorts I ever put on - good design, fit well, good materials and construction. I think that's when they were still made in Canada. Well worth the money. And it's got that cool dead dinosaur bird logo. How can you beat that?
Rope= tunetty seeis dala fu 100 metta danamik rope karabina= too dalla (moanky man especeel) good larg cam = ninn dala( yoo pik yuur size) nootface tent =sitty seeis dala any size ice boot = thitty nine dala kliming shoe= saven dala big bakpak= futty fiv dala
only in a narrow view of the discussion. I think it's quite relevant to the whole outsourcing debate, which I think is what we're talking about. could be wrong.
In reply to:
Are there pollution issues? Maybe, but let's remember that the US is still the worlds largest polluter. Are there work conditions to take into consideration? Sure, but can't a company insist on high work standards despite the norm in a particular country? Why do good work conditions have to exist in the developed world alone? How are work conditions going to improve in the developing world if standards aren't exported along with jobs?
word to that.
In reply to:
You wrote that as if you believe it's true.
(I'm in love with this sentence.)
In reply to:
There are lots of reasons for being cheaper. For instance less waste in the manufacturing process, configuration changes, less overhead in the company, fewer defects due to a good quality program, etc., etc., etc..
there are lots of positive reasons for lower prices, but you write that as if there are no negative ones. it's possible to infer what prices are the result of negative externalities and what aren't. but the information is by no means complete.
Not that quality gear can't be made in China, but it leaves a bad taste in my mouth when companies that pride themselves on this and that sell out to bump up their profit a little.
What if they pride themselves on making stuff in China?
Do you realize that only about 1/10 of the cost of any climbing / outdoor sports stuff is labor? The real costs and environmental impacts are from the manufacture of the raw materials. Do you care or even know where the material inputs are from in your climbing gear? Would you rather have something made from materials manufactured in the USA and sewn together (for example... ) in Turkey or something made from raw materials manufactured in the PRC and sewn together in the USA?
extremeactuary wrote:
There are only two reasons why we outsource:
1. To circumvent minimum wage and labor laws. ...
2. To circumvent higher pollution standards. ...
Um. In my professional experience, I don't think so.
In the sewn products business, you outsource because there's only one place (East Asia) that has lots of factories doing the work to the highest standards. Look, I guess most people haven't gotten the memo, but the batch manufactured sewn products business in the USA and Canada is more or less toast. In real terms, it's only the military. I'm busy cutting fabric right now, or I'd get into it more, but at least in batch manufactured sewn products, I can get better quality, better timeliness and it happens to be possible in East Asia. It's not just the factories or sweatshops that you think of, it's the upstream manufacturers of tooling, the fabric mills and of course trained, highly skilled workers.
It's a simple actuarial problem; no tools, no workers, no production...
chossmonkey wrote:
They make more profit, we still pay the same or more for the product and quality normally takes a hit.
Or, as I think is more likely, companies outsourcing try desperately to hold the line on costs so the cheap bastards they sell stuff to don't stop buying the products...
And the reason there is nobody who can sew in N.America is.........................
Oh, funny. Those jobs have all been shipped away.
Honestly, I'd rather (and will) pay a few bucks more for something made in the US or Canada.
Absolutely I care where a particular piece of gear is made. All sorts of factors go into that consideraton.
For example, I don't mind buyiuung gear made in France, Italy or UK. I don't mind buying US or in a lot of cases Mexican made gear. I (gasp!!!) don't even mind buying CANADIAN (I know.... I know.... ) so long as it isn't made of gold like apparently that stuff from the dead bird company is.
I avoid China made gear but for softgoods that's bloody hard to do. Ditto India.
But I wouldn't knowingly buy hard goods from either of those countries, nor would I knowingly do business with a US firm that oursources formerly US provided labor to either country or anything similar.
For example if I found out BD or Omega Pacific, just to pick two random examples, had outsourced cam production to Bangladesh I'd pretty much stop doing business with them; entirely.
DMT
You do know that C4's are made in China right?
You do know I don't own any C4s right? You do know I haven't bought BD anything for quite some time right?
Um. In my professional experience, I don't think so.
In the sewn products business, you outsource because there's only one place (East Asia) that has lots of factories doing the work to the highest standards. Look, I guess most people haven't gotten the memo, but the batch manufactured sewn products business in the USA and Canada is more or less toast....
But that's because they'll do it for cheaper over there. We used to make fabric, and it was good quality. But in an attempt to keep up with the stuff from overseas quality was cut to lower price. Eventually we lost the competition and you just outsources it. At the root of the issue is as EA said, lower wages and non-existant labor laws and pollution standards.
Absolutely I care where a particular piece of gear is made. All sorts of factors go into that consideraton.
For example, I don't mind buyiuung gear made in France, Italy or UK. I don't mind buying US or in a lot of cases Mexican made gear. I (gasp!!!) don't even mind buying CANADIAN (I know.... I know.... ) so long as it isn't made of gold like apparently that stuff from the dead bird company is.
I avoid China made gear but for softgoods that's bloody hard to do. Ditto India.
But I wouldn't knowingly buy hard goods from either of those countries, nor would I knowingly do business with a US firm that oursources formerly US provided labor to either country or anything similar.
For example if I found out BD or Omega Pacific, just to pick two random examples, had outsourced cam production to Bangladesh I'd pretty much stop doing business with them; entirely.
DMT
Arc'teryx is mostly made in china.
As is more and more gear.
Not that quality gear can't be made in China, but it leaves a bad taste in my mouth when companies that pride themselves on this and that sell out to bump up their profit a little.
They make more profit, we still pay the same or more for the product and quality normally takes a hit.
Considering the exorbitant pricing scheme Arc'teryx employs, it's a little disconcerting they make their wares in China. I've never figured what makes skeleton bird worth so much more than every other synonymous product; the profit certainly isn't supporting the wages of its workers.
A few years ago I bought a pair of their shorts on clearance. Still ridiculously expensive. But the best pair of shorts I ever put on - good design, fit well, good materials and construction. I think that's when they were still made in Canada. Well worth the money. And it's got that cool dead dinosaur bird logo. How can you beat that?
Rope= tunetty seeis dala fu 100 metta danamik rope karabina= too dalla (moanky man especeel) good larg cam = ninn dala( yoo pik yuur size) nootface tent =sitty seeis dala any size ice boot = thitty nine dala kliming shoe= saven dala big bakpak= futty fiv dala
Not that quality gear can't be made in China, but it leaves a bad taste in my mouth when companies that pride themselves on this and that sell out to bump up their profit a little.
What if they pride themselves on making stuff in China?
But they don't, they still pretend to be American, Canadian, Italian, etc. companies.
47 /
57%
) in Turkey or something made from raw materials manufactured in the PRC and sewn together in the USA? 
