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ServiceAceStud
Dec 12, 2008, 2:25 AM
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I've left out names and locations as to not offend anyone.
What are everyone's thoughts on being the last and or the first to climb a climb after/before an accident ,regardless of severity.
Come to find out that was apparently the last to climb a particular route before a death. I did not find this out until some like after and it kinda makes me feel queezy. The reason for the accident was pure climbing error and inexperience, but me and one of my regular climbing partners discussed his experience in which he was the first to climb after an accident. He also feels odd, but more cursed and that although not the proudest lines we both learned much more from other's mistakes after finding out about the timelines. My partner actually said he will not climb that line ever again out of respect he says for the fallen.
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angry
Dec 12, 2008, 2:31 AM
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It's a strange thing to finish a climb only to find out someone died on it the day after you've done it. Disturbing indeed.
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moose_droppings
Dec 12, 2008, 3:06 AM
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ServiceAceStud wrote: I've left out names and locations as to not offend anyone. What are everyone's thoughts on being the last and or the first to climb a climb after/before an accident ,regardless of severity. Come to find out that was apparently the last to climb a particular route before a death. I did not find this out until some like after and it kinda makes me feel queezy. The reason for the accident was pure climbing error and inexperience, but me and one of my regular climbing partners discussed his experience in which he was the first to climb after an accident. He also feels odd, but more cursed and that although not the proudest lines we both learned much more from other's mistakes after finding out about the timelines. My partner actually said he will not climb that line ever again out of respect he says for the fallen.
Are you really the first afterwards. I mean, with rescue, people aiding the victim, investigators and such? If it gives you the willies, don't. If its out of respect, then by all means don't. I really don't believe the one that passed would want you to avoid it. Life does go on and its your call. I'm often the first one to cross the path were someone just got killed in a car, suicide, accident or whatever. Not out of disrespect, just the nature of the job.
Maybe I've become numb in that area, but it wouldn't bother me.
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mushroom
Dec 13, 2008, 1:34 PM
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Hey man, that kinda stuff will spook you but whatever, you'll let it go, all in good time.
I used to work for a rafting company. I took this one gent down the river one day, then the next day he died in someone else's raft. I felt all weird at first, probably what you are feeling now. I imagine this is the natural way to react. It is normal to draw up connections and coincidence when confronted with something we don't understand. 2.5 years later I have chalked up it up as just a series of events, of which I happen to have a place in.
Perhaps you can find peace in knowing that this person died before his body ever did, and he perhaps did it doing something he cherished. How would you rather go? Therefore, he lost nothing in death, nor will any of us.
I'm pretty sure nobody is hexed over this.... I don't know if you can pick up bad karma from a situation like that.
Regarding respect for the dead--I don't think anyone has claim to a route because they died on it. I hope I'm not coming off as insensitive, but I think your friend's issue is a case of being spooked out. Time will heal this, in sha' allah.
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evanwish
Dec 13, 2008, 5:54 PM
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wow.. thats a touchy subject... i guess it really depends on the person. I've never climbed a route after someone got injured on it but it was kinda spooky when i reclimbed the route that i shattered my ankle on a while back..
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Lazlo
Dec 14, 2008, 10:36 PM
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It spooks me a little. I have a plan for a backcountry style mountain that has taken two lives.
Also climbing at a barren sport crag on weird rock at altitude, knowing that it's also made it's claims will get at me a little. I can't help but think about it every so often.
Doesn't bother me on larger, more frequented routes or mountains.
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cintune
Dec 14, 2008, 10:54 PM
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Always bears repeating:
"Climb if you will, but remember that courage and strength are nought without prudence, and that a momentary negligence may destroy the happiness of a lifetime. Do nothing in haste; look well to each step; and from the beginning think what may be the end."
- E. Whymper.
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Lazlo
Dec 14, 2008, 11:58 PM
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cintune wrote: Always bears repeating: "Climb if you will, but remember that courage and strength are nought without prudence, and that a momentary negligence may destroy the happiness of a lifetime. Do nothing in haste; look well to each step; and from the beginning think what may be the end." - E. Whymper.
That is an excellent quote.
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blueeyedclimber
Dec 15, 2008, 1:57 PM
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I don't know if I have ever been the first or last before or after an accident. But...I do know that i have been on climbs before or after an accident, including one I have led that someone died on. It hits home a little more.
Josh
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sungam
Dec 15, 2008, 7:59 PM
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If I didn;t know about it, I won't be upset. But if I do, I'll look at why it happened and ensure that the same thing doesn;t happen to me. This can be done by doing the route differently, with more gear, with different gear, or by not doing the route at all.
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dingus
Dec 16, 2008, 12:48 PM
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A hiker was killed in the Cathedral Chimney in Yosemite a decade back or so. No one was sure exactly how he died, but he eitehr got hit by a falling rock or merely slipped, fell down the broken 3rd and 4th class chimney and expired.
OK.
A few days later Burl and I climbed the East Buttress of Middle Cathedral. On the descent we knew a climber had died in there the previous week.
We came across a new rap bolt with a SAR-marked biner on it. So we rapped off it. during that rop we started noting a lot of blood marks on the rocks. At the base of the rap was a dried pool of it. The rope was laying on it.
There is worse to come.
Just below this, this fallen hiker either rolled or maybe survived the first fall and tried to get up - again quien sabe.
Maybe 15 feet lower was even more gore. That's where Burl was when I rapped down 2nd.
We were both subdued. Burl was sitting there waiting for me. I guess he didn't pay attention - cause he was sitting in what we later surmised was brain matter. He was sitting on the exact spot where the dude had been found.
A few years later, again descending Cathedral Chimney with Burl. We were just above that bolt, having negotiated the traverse into the chimney.
We were just standing there, maybe pausing for a second before continuing the descent. We were about 3 feet apart.
I heard this high pitched whistling noise - high pitched and FAST.
And in an instant.... a rock the size of a football, having fallen from the visor of Higher Cathedral Rock about a 1000 feet over our heads and exploded directly in between us.
We were STUNNED!
And we had a new theory about how that fallen hiker had received such a massive head injury....
DMT
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rockie
Dec 31, 2008, 3:38 PM
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ServiceAceStud wrote: I've left out names and locations as to not offend anyone. What are everyone's thoughts on being the last and or the first to climb a climb after/before an accident ,regardless of severity. Come to find out that was apparently the last to climb a particular route before a death. I did not find this out until some like after and it kinda makes me feel queezy. The reason for the accident was pure climbing error and inexperience, but me and one of my regular climbing partners discussed his experience in which he was the first to climb after an accident. He also feels odd, but more cursed and that although not the proudest lines we both learned much more from other's mistakes after finding out about the timelines. My partner actually said he will not climb that line ever again out of respect he says for the fallen.
I climbed up a route that someone had just fallen off about 1 hr before. He didn't die luckily, it was an anchor failure on his part at Murrin Park in Squamish.
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rockie
Dec 31, 2008, 3:39 PM
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sungam wrote: If I didn;t know about it, I won't be upset. But if I do, I'll look at why it happened and ensure that the same thing doesn;t happen to me. This can be done by doing the route differently, with more gear, with different gear, or by not doing the route at all.
I agree. It's the same for me.
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rockie
Dec 31, 2008, 3:43 PM
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Lazlo wrote: cintune wrote: Always bears repeating: "Climb if you will, but remember that courage and strength are nought without prudence, and that a momentary negligence may destroy the happiness of a lifetime. Do nothing in haste; look well to each step; and from the beginning think what may be the end." - E. Whymper. That is an excellent quote.
Agree. Stay focused and you keep safe.
Become negligent and you become unsafe.
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esoteric1
Dec 31, 2008, 3:45 PM
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do you go out of your way to walk around a ladder instead of under it? do you cringe when you break a mirror? whatever, its just a route. ive climbed 2 lines after serious accidents, stepped in puddles of coagulated blood, doesnt bother me a bit, makes me more aware but doesnt bother me in the least. now, if it was someone I knew or a close friend it might affect me in a different way...
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ServiceAceStud
Dec 31, 2008, 5:15 PM
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Without giving away too much information. I did know one of the accident victims. The gym I used to set at had college courses every semester, initially he/she got back into climbing through these courses and then became an infrequent member. I personally had belayed this victim, though never got a belay from(in the gym of course). We at the gym would see he/she less and less, but members would keep in touch and it turns out a buddy of mine who I frequently boulder, sport climb with is a good friend of the victim, and his dad was at the bottom of the crag when SAR got the call.
It really only affects me in that in my time at that gym I made it a point to correct and teach the members who eventually might want to go outside. I ended up creating my own partners, in which you motivate someone to progress to your level, then you teach then techniques on how to belay, build anchors, set pro, and be a rock climber and voila, a partner for life. I feel like had I know a gym member might get hurt like that I'd have taken more time to explian the importance of the jesus nut, and a 3 piece anchor and share with them some experiences of more seasoned climbers and why we do what we do.
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fitzontherocks
Dec 31, 2008, 5:49 PM
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ServiceAceStud wrote: Without giving away too much information. I did know one of the accident victims. The gym I used to set at had college courses every semester, initially he/she got back into climbing through these courses and then became an infrequent member. I personally had belayed this victim, though never got a belay from(in the gym of course). We at the gym would see he/she less and less, but members would keep in touch and it turns out a buddy of mine who I frequently boulder, sport climb with is a good friend of the victim, and his dad was at the bottom of the crag when SAR got the call. It really only affects me in that in my time at that gym I made it a point to correct and teach the members who eventually might want to go outside. I ended up creating my own partners, in which you motivate someone to progress to your level, then you teach then techniques on how to belay, build anchors, set pro, and be a rock climber and voila, a partner for life. I feel like had I know a gym member might get hurt like that I'd have taken more time to explian the importance of the jesus nut, and a 3 piece anchor and share with them some experiences of more seasoned climbers and why we do what we do.
I take it you're on the young side...? I don't mean this in a bad way, but as you get older, you're just going to have more experience with the deaths of people around you. It doesn't get any easier, but you just develop a better sense of what to do or how to feel. I grew up riding horses, and after getting thrown one time, my father told me "get back on that horse." That applies to a lot of situations, this one included.
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fitzontherocks
Dec 31, 2008, 5:51 PM
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Why is there a blue version and a regular version of this thread? And apparently identical?
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clemsonscooby
Dec 31, 2008, 6:59 PM
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The wife and I got on a route that someone took a nasty tumbler, because they tried to rappel off a single nut. The people didn't have helmets, fell about a 100ft., but managed to survive. We didn't think anything of it, because we knew the people shouldn't have been there. We joked when we got to the spot that we were going to bail with a single nut, but obviously did not. Besides how can anyone know the entire history of a route before getting on it. Don't take on apline climbing if it affects you that much, because I don't know there are many places you could go. Celebrate their life don't mourn their death.
(This post was edited by clemsonscooby on Dec 31, 2008, 7:01 PM)
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sungam
Dec 31, 2008, 7:27 PM
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fitzontherocks wrote: Why is there a blue version and a regular version of this thread? And apparently identical?
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rockie
Dec 31, 2008, 10:26 PM
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ServiceAceStud wrote: I feel like had I know a gym member might get hurt like that I'd have taken more time to explian the importance of the jesus nut,
What do you mean by the Jesus nut? Not heard that term before that's all. Are you referring to a redirect passive placement?
edit to add passive.
(This post was edited by rockie on Dec 31, 2008, 10:27 PM)
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Lazlo
Jan 1, 2009, 4:50 AM
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rockie wrote: ServiceAceStud wrote: I feel like had I know a gym member might get hurt like that I'd have taken more time to explian the importance of the jesus nut, What do you mean by the Jesus nut? Not heard that term before that's all. Are you referring to a redirect passive placement? edit to add passive.
If the Jesus Nut fails; He's the next person you'll see.
It's the first pro after your anchor. Helps you avoid FF2.
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rockie
Jan 1, 2009, 2:01 PM
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I see. Thank you.
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j_ung
Jan 1, 2009, 3:03 PM
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Early on in my climbing life something similar happened. I was Great Falls Virginia, one fine summery day, Microdome, I think, and was just about to toss a rope, when rescue guys appeared all around me. They were yakking into walkies and doing all that rescuey stuff. Turns out I was about to toss my rope on an injured hiker who had fallen. We stayed out of the way and they did their thing, packaged him up and loaded him onto a raft to paddle him down stream (much faster than hauling him out). We climbed what we had ready to go with a pool of still wet blood right next door, but then left. I don't think any of us felt quite right. I heard later he died of his injuries.
Many years later I and a friend were first responders at the Nose on Looking Glass. A leader fell, we estimate, about 160 rolling, crashing, ledging feet. Luckily for him, he only had minor injuries (though they were on just about every square inch of his body). I had a dog with me, a pit bull, who had a uniform phobia, so when paramedics arrived, she went crazy. (Yes I had her tied up, she wasn't dangerous. Just noisy.)
So there was my snarling ferocious dog, a bunch of medics with lungs of fire from the approach, and then the bugs set in. Over the course of probably an hour, they made the circuit between the victim's readily accessible blood and ours -- fucking clouds of them were biting like crazy. It was an utterly unpleasant and gruesome scene. At one point I lost radial pulses on the victim. Scary!
But we didn't climb again that day. It was a long time ago, but I think I remember going to a bar and drinking. We did climb the next day, though, and I remember it being a pretty fantastic day. I even onsighted something on the South End that had near-certain death-fall potential. Weird.
On yet another occasion, riverboarding, A group of us stopped on a rock in the river to munch a snack. One of our party says, out of the blue, something like, "Twenty-four hours ago I was doing CPR on this very spot." He was a video boater for one of the raft companies, and an elderly guest had taken a small swim, but went into cardiac arrest when he hit the cold water. He didn't make it. It was a somber moment, but I think I was more concerned about my buddy than anything else. He was coping, but he definitely seemed a little shaken. Strong dude -- I probably would have handled it worse.
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