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charley
Feb 5, 2009, 12:33 AM
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Is there a ballpark way to know when you go from aerobic training to anaerobic threshold training. Is percentage of max heartrate usable as a guide.
Does anyone know if recumbe3nt bike is close to stationary bike in trainig results.
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timmay
Feb 5, 2009, 12:43 AM
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There is no great way to accurately tell where you switch from aerobic to anaerobic training without a lactate monitor or lab testing. It is possible to ballpark your anaerobic threshold by finding the heart rate at which your breathing becomes difficult (ventilatory threshold). Unfortunately, it is not possible to use percentage of max heart rate as a guide because the anaerobic threshold can change depending on fitness. The AT may occur at close to 90% of max heart rate for an elite endurance athlete or close to 60% for a normal individual.
I can't tell you how close the recumbent bike is to the stationary bike though I would venture to guess that it uses similar muscles as a stationary bike but you lose a little by not needing to support your upper body. Again, this is just a guess.
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mtn_eagle
Feb 5, 2009, 12:52 AM
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In well conditioned athletes, the anaerobic threshold usually occurs at a heart rate around 90% +/- 5% of max predicted heart rate. Max predicted heart rate is estimated at 220 - age. You could therefore estimate the heart rate where your anaeobic threshold occurs. To test it, exercise with a heart rate monitor on and see if you can keep exercising at that heart rate. Generally speaking, most people are not able to exercise for more than a few minutes above their anaerobic thresholdIn reply to: . By doing this at a few different heart rates, you could fine tune your estimation.
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aerili
Feb 5, 2009, 12:53 AM
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charley,
Heartrate tends to start elevating around the same time you enter anaerobic threshold, but it's not an exact overlap and you can't use a standard percentage of HR max chart to figure it out--because everyone's heart rate is actually so different. Usually the upward curve is viewed in a lab on software that is graphing your heartrate as you do an activity of increasing intensity (so you're hooked up).
There is another measure called Rating of Perceived Exertion--it's quite subjective but I find it more useful generally than standardized HR max % because it reflects your actual, right-then, right-there state.
The best way to know (without using any devices or charts) when you hit anaerobic threshold is when you're working hard enough that you see the end in sight. i.e. Push to that boundary and sustain it as long as you can, then recover. That's a very basic formula.
In reply to: Does anyone know if recumbe3nt bike is close to stationary bike in trainig results.
Training results for what? General cardiopulmonary fitness? Or something specific?
Cardiopulmonary fitness is actually quite specific to each activity. So whatever you do, you'll increase your aerobic capacity the most in that exact activity and then you'll see carryover effect to other activities.
I don't like the recumbent bike very much; I prefer a regular set-up, but for people with certain problems like bad backs, bad necks, etc., the recumbent bike can be a better option.
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johnwesely
Feb 5, 2009, 12:56 AM
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If you have to shake out then you have passed it. There are exercises in the Self Coached Climber to help you find out where that is.
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patto
Feb 5, 2009, 1:04 AM
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johnwesely wrote: If you have to shake out then you have passed it. There are exercises in the Self Coached Climber to help you find out where that is.
Not true.
You won't be anywhere close to your anaerobic threshold with static arms. In fact it is difficult to get into an anaerobic zone without exploying your large leg muscles.
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johnwesely
Feb 5, 2009, 1:10 AM
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patto wrote: johnwesely wrote: If you have to shake out then you have passed it. There are exercises in the Self Coached Climber to help you find out where that is. Not true. You won't be anywhere close to your anaerobic threshold with static arms. In fact it is difficult to get into an anaerobic zone without exploying your large leg muscles.
So thats why I can campus for an hour straight, and why my legs always get so pumped at the red river gorge. If I don't know what I am talking about, I apologize for being so dickish in advance.
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aerili
Feb 5, 2009, 1:42 AM
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It's not totally as simplistic as that, j.w.
If you trained your legs in the right way you would also experience decreased pumpage at the RRG. Mostly the dichotomy of what you're experiencing is the reality that you've trained your hands/forearms to have a great deal of strength and endurance, whereas you probably have not trained your legs specifically to be better in any way.
Anaerobic threshold does not require the use of your legs to achieve (ask a wheelchair athlete).
I would say if you can "campus for an hour" then yes, you've increased your anaerobic threshold in this activity quite a bit, as this probably does comprise a partially-aerobic activity for you at this point. But anyway, I don't think that kind of training (campusing, forearm pump) is what the OP was asking about.
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johnwesely
Feb 5, 2009, 2:27 AM
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thanks for clarifying that for me.
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Valarc
Feb 5, 2009, 2:50 AM
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aerili wrote: I don't like the recumbent bike very much; I prefer a regular set-up, but for people with certain problems like bad backs, bad necks, etc., the recumbent bike can be a better option.
Starting to stray off topic here, but I'd like to hear more on why you dislike the recumbent bike. I tend to prefer them to the upright designs for comfort reasons, and actually considered buying a recumbent road bike for commuting as well.
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aerili
Feb 5, 2009, 6:26 AM
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I find it harder to get as intense a workout using glutes, hams, and quads all as efficiently/effectively as in a more standard position.
It also makes my butt start hurting. But I am a weenie and have a comfort gel seat on my mountain bike + I wear the most padded Sugoi shorts evah.  But for some reason a stationary recumbent bike hurts my ass in a different way than a regular seat.
But if you prefer it, I would always recommend the type of exercise you prefer over the one you do not! My ex-boyfriend's brother bought one of those recumbent road bikes and he got in very good shape with it (he had a bulging disk in his neck that prevented him from riding a regular bike).
The only drawback I could see to the recumbent road bike is that they are expensive and parts are hard to come by. He drove all the way from Vegas to Phoenix once just to get some part for his bike....
(This post was edited by aerili on Feb 5, 2009, 6:29 AM)
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charley
Feb 5, 2009, 2:45 PM
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Thanks for the answers. I knew I could count on you folks. I will try the percieved exertion method. I do different kinds of cardio during the week for different results. I do a day or two that are just easy recuperative workouts and others that I want to be harder. I guess percieved is what I have been doing. I am going to a gym for the winter so I am using there bikes. The recumbent causes a little pain almost like muscle pull in my right inner thigh but the seat is more comfortable. I don't have my gel seat or shorts. I could use my biking shorts though. I had heard sometime in life that a recumbent didn't do as good a job on general fitness. It doesn't use the arms as much but I think you can get the same cardio workout from it.
Again thanks.
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jto
Feb 5, 2009, 2:51 PM
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Because of the strange nature of climbing one must separate the general and local anaerobic thresholds from each other. During climbing the GAnT is usually not very easy to reach but in the same time the LAnT usually is. Anyway the LAnT is reached way sooner because the muscles in the arms and back are smaller.
My way of finding out the GAnT in running: when your legs turn to cooked spagetti and your respiratory rate sky rockets, thatīs the GAnT heart rate.
In climbing the best way is to climb the traditional pyramid way: Climb easy and non cruxy routes back to back and up the grade every 5 minutes or so like 6a, 6a+, 6b... When you need to shake and your forearms are getting pumped, thatīs the LAnT grade then.
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thatguyat99
Feb 5, 2009, 3:48 PM
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This is pretty interesting and brings up a question for me.
If you do a specific activity i.e. weight lifting, sprinting, biking, etc... with such intensity that you feel like you are going to throw up or actually do throw up, is this reaching and possibly passing your anaerobic threshhold? Is this a reaction to build up of lactic acid?
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aerili
Feb 5, 2009, 8:53 PM
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Well, I think nausea can be triggered by different things during intense exercise. Definitely that puke feeling can be related to pushing anaerobic threshold, but I am not sure I can say "how" it causes nausea/vomiting.
Sometimes being low on blood sugar (or having just eaten) or high ambient temps can make it occur more easily.
Sometimes I believe such nausea is something called a vasovagal response. This is a response of your central nervous system and doesn't necessarily require heavy exertion to occur (fainting anyone?).
I would say nausea has really nothing to do with lactate build-up. Your body can easily clear and utilize the lactate within a couple hours but it doesn't make you "sick."
jto made a great post about the differences between general and local AT, btw.
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