Some "safe" and "unsafe" methods can be found here:

Pages 7-9 here:
http://www.alpineclubofcanada.ca/...ok/Chinook-Nov08.pdf

That is, unless I'm completely misunderstanding what you're attempting to do.

I'd also like to see some data about overloading the biner if your using anything wider than 12mm. I carry all 3/4" nylon trad draws on my main rack. My lite rack does have 8mm draws on it, but don't take as much abuse and need replacing every few years. Next time they're getting replaced with nylon 3/4" too.

Good info above, good material for the FAQ I'd suggest.


The linked article does say:

"
I wouldn't go for nylon slings or anything wider than 12mm because it could overload the karabiners.
"

And as moose mentions


I'd also like to see some data on this or know if it's true. I prefer nylon, and use 18mm black diamonds. Though I'm using them on wire ovals or beefy black diamond Rocklock Screwgate carabiners

I do use spectra slings for non anchor stuff.

Since the force (load) on the biner is not a factor of the webbing width. Its only dependent on the fall length/climber weight/rope stretch.

Then I started noticing this gate cinching effect - and once noticed, I noticed it A LOT. I also noted it could happen even after the leader took care to insure it didn't - the normal movement of the rope as the leader climbs can and does cause that loop of sling to move around.

So much so in fact that even when doubled? I unclip the cinch loop as a second step, every time now. I've become really paranoid about that cinch loop levering open the gate during a fall.

Eventually I stopped using the sliding x double method entirely in favor of the triple pass thru. The triple method does not produce this 'residual' loop that can (I think) lever open the gate.

DMT

You are correct in stating that the force (load) on the biner is not a factor of the webbing width, but the stresses in the biner are a correlated to the webbing width. The wider the webbing is, the bigger the moment arm from where the force is applied to the spine of the biner which creates higher stresses in the biner (stress = MC/I, you increase M, you increase the stress). I am guessing this is what is being referred to as overloading the biner. I would also like to see some test data on this to see if it is really an issue or not.

That article is misleading and I don't accept the advice offered.

First of all, he states there is a chance for dropping a biner with the triple-pass thru, claims to illustrate how this can happen (I can't envision it myself). But the example he shows is not a triple pass through but a double with no twist. Completely different scenario.

Also, the sliding x method of doubling has a completely different inherent problem that bears mention:

A common method and indeed on that is illustrated in the article is to unclip one strand and let it drop. I'm sure if you're at all interested in this stuff, you will know that one of the strands extends and the other tightens to a coil around the shaft of the host biner.

With me? When the coil of sling cinches around the shaft of the host biner, the coil will eithe be closer to the gate or not, one or the other (this depends upon which strand was dropped).

If that coil of sling is on the gate side? It can cinch up on the gate hinge itself. This is particularly notable with wire gate biners - more often than not if you drop the strand that causes the loop to be on the gate side? It will cinch on the gate hinge itself, becasue this area in a wiregate has lots of bumps and irregularities to catch on.

That strand, cinched on the gate... in my *opinion* sets up a potential for catastrophic failure of the biner.

I used the sliding x method of doubleing runners for some 2.5 decades. I was shown the pass thru triple but resisted.

Then I started noticing this gate cinching effect - and once noticed, I noticed it A LOT. I also noted it could happen even after the leader took care to insure it didn't - the normal movement of the rope as the leader climbs can and does cause that loop of sling to move around.

So much so in fact that even when doubled? I unclip the cinch loop as a second step, every time now. I've become really paranoid about that cinch loop levering open the gate during a fall.

Eventually I stopped using the sliding x double method entirely in favor of the triple pass thru. The triple method does not produce this 'residual' loop that can (I think) lever open the gate.

Lastly, quad method also shown - I've also used that for decades, literally. Sliding out from quad to double isn't smooth and generally the strands won't self-equalize. I still do it for storage purposes but generally unfurl the entire thing and then reshorten to purpose - I've found this fastrer and less troubesome.

I don't mean to pick that article apart, but I think the observations above are correct.

Comments?

DMT

If you are still having problems envisioning how you can drop the carabiner off the end by unclipping a loop improperly, I'll give you a hint: It involves the released loop pulling through the opposite carabiner and unwinding completely. If you tried it and it didn't work, number the loops with tape and try each one individually........

Also, Orvel has seen or heard of many experienced (and inexperienced) people do things at least this unlikely (dropping the wrong loop from the pass-through triple,) and he's the kind of guy who would rather let people know it's possible than hear about it after they've done it.

Personally I just use a 2" sling with 2 biners. You know, one of those KISS thingies.

I guess I don't follow your suggestion "dropping the wrong loop from the pass-through triple,". When your trad draw is tripled, you drop any two strands and the draw will become one large loop.
Am I misunderstanding, per usual?

Orvel was just saying that if you didn't know this could happen, now you know it could happen.

I see what your saying now, but why grab just one? The idea of extending the runner when its tripled is to drop any two, not one.

Some "safe" and "unsafe" methods can be found here:

Pages 7-9 here:
http://www.alpineclubofcanada.ca/...ok/Chinook-Nov08.pdf

That is, unless I'm completely misunderstanding what you're attempting to do.

If you are trying to lengthen the 1/3 to 1/2, you can drop one (if you drop the right one,) using the pass-through triple. Using the other method, you can drop one and always lengthen 1/3 to 1/2 without needing to pick the right one.

The author brings up a good point about the traditional trad draw (unclipping only one strand could result in lost biner). The simple solution is to always drop out two strands. No matter which two strands, or which biner you pick, it will always come out just right.