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matthewsuckerpunch
Mar 11, 2009, 9:10 PM
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thought i broke my ankle last week while bouldering. up until last night i couldnt put weight on it and everyone said i may have just fractured it. well today i finally made it to the ortho doc and he said i just have a really bad bruise on my heal bone. said it might still be awhile before i can walk or run on it but atleast its not broken. guess i didnt know you could bruise bones... anyway, i should be back to climbin soon! time to go crush that hangboard!
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durangoclimber
Mar 11, 2009, 9:41 PM
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You lucky SOB !!! I broke mine in half. Here is a pic of the results. Count yourself lucky. I'll never be the same but hey I am climbing again.
Wanna see more pics from the disaster?
www.lifeuphigh.blogspot.com
Scroll down on the main page.
(This post was edited by durangoclimber on Mar 11, 2009, 9:43 PM)
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Grizvok
Mar 12, 2009, 12:07 AM
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matthewsuckerpunch wrote: thought i broke my ankle last week while bouldering. up until last night i couldnt put weight on it and everyone said i may have just fractured it. well today i finally made it to the ortho doc and he said i just have a really bad bruise on my heal bone. said it might still be awhile before i can walk or run on it but atleast its not broken. guess i didnt know you could bruise bones... anyway, i should be back to climbin soon! time to go crush that hangboard!
You'd think people would know by now that a fracture and a break are exactly the same thing.
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matthewsuckerpunch
Mar 12, 2009, 12:15 AM
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i said it that way as in it was either big time broken like snapped in half or alittle broken like a hairline fracture. a broken bone is a broken bone. i guess i was just thinking in degrees of bad and really bad.
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aerili
Mar 12, 2009, 6:25 AM
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matthewsuckerpunch wrote: i said it that way as in it was either big time broken like snapped in half or alittle broken like a hairline fracture.
Well, you were wrong. I've seen "a little broken" fractures involving bone ends sticking out of arms and legs.
But congratulations on the bruise diagnosis.
This is what it comes down to. Congratulating people on the actual lesser severity of their injuries.
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climbingam
Mar 12, 2009, 11:21 AM
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lol, Look, mad props for all your injury help but this is just nit picking and snarky. Google "hairline break" (1700 results) vs. "incomplete fracture" (15,200 results) vs. "Hairline fracture" (132,000 results). Given the context and the common colloquial usage of "hairline fracture" it's obvious what he meant when he used both in the sentence and left out "hairline". I personally didn't need him to say "incomplete fracture" to get the point across.
In OP's response to Griz, he clarified that he meant hairline, which by definition isn't going to be sticking out of anything. So, and I hate to say it, "you were wrong".
Maybe you just read it fast, I dunno, but I've spent weeks reading your help with injures and you're great but here???
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onceahardman
Mar 12, 2009, 12:33 PM
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In the (paraphrased) words of Einstein, "10,000 scientists can agree with me, but it only takes one to prove me wrong."
I don't care if a google search shows a trillion hits for hairline fracture. It doesn't change the medical definition.
A fracture which (hairline or not) which does not penetrate the skin is defined as a "simple fracture". A compound fracture (hairline or not) penetrates the skin.
That's the definition, I didn't make it up. The OP was wrong, and subsequently corrected himself.
You probably should have left this alone, rather than increase the snark with more incorrect info.
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altelis
Mar 12, 2009, 12:57 PM
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To build on this and as a "warning" to everybody out there (though there really isn't anything to be done or can be done, its just good for ya'll to know it):
When medical terminology ("fracture", "sprain", "depressed", "anxious") becomes every day in the lay population, the lay population will tend to turn around and do two things:
1) Use this terminology incorrectly when describing symptoms/complaints to their Health Care Provider (HCP). The more you use the terms without fully understanding them the more you risk your HCP missing the fact that you are incorrectly (from a technical point of view, which is how we HCP talk/communicate in order to ensure greater accuracy in conveying ideas) communicating what is going on. Just be aware. Patients- be aware you may be giving an impression of having knowledge you don't and therefore describing symptoms you don't have. HCP's- be aware that just because you hear a pt use a term that has a certain meaning in our world this doesn't mean the pt is using it in the same way. I have, unfortunately, seen both sides of the coin lead to some issues.
2) When you hear these words used by your HCP you assume you know what they mean. Well, you kinda do. You know what they mean coming out of the mouth of a lay person. But many, many, many times these words mean either something very different or something very much more specific in the world of medicine. Remember that just because you know what that word means when your friend uses it doesn't mean your HCP is using it the same way. Follow up on anything your HCP says with questions- you shouldn't be walking out of the office, have a friend ask "so whats wrong" and you say nothing more educated than when you walked in....
This is a problem faced in any field with a technical language whose technical words are also in the set of English words. It happens in medicine, psychology, biology, philosophy, history, etc., etc. Just because we think we have an idea of what the word means in our lay language does not indicate that the we understand what the word means in the technical language set. To whit, just because you get Google to agree doesn't mean you are right. If you get JAMA to agree, or a history journal to agree, etc., THEN you are on to something.....(of course, if you can get Google or a journal "to agree" to just about anything, your probably on to something BIG!  )
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climbingam
Mar 12, 2009, 1:04 PM
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Well, I'm not going to go into full on war over this because if you are willing to jump in and defend I can just imagine what the community will do after I challenge both of you, in the same thread no less, but you are incorrect-
From stedmans and every other medical dictionary
http://www.stedmans.com/section.cfm/45
hairline fracture
a fracture without separation of the fragments, the line of break being hairlike, as seen sometimes in the skull. Syn: capillary fracture
By definition, this type of fracture cannot penetrate because it is only on the surface of the bone and is, very very tiny with neither side of the fracture out of place.
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climbingam
Mar 12, 2009, 1:10 PM
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First, your overall point is irrifutable. I only take a minor issue in how it might relate to my point.
My point wasn't that Griz was wrong, it was that after OP said he meant "hairline fracture" then any comment that he was wrong was out of line.
Besides, just because acceleration means change in velocity OR direction doesn't mean that you have to qualify that every time when you are having a discussion where it doesn't matter or where physicists know what you mean.
Your "warning" is for who? OP is risking his life by not qualifying his fracture type? Time and place are called context and that matters.
I am now going to have a long talk with myself about defending other people's posts.
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altelis
Mar 12, 2009, 1:26 PM
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Holy clenched asshole batman!!!! Chllax.
Did my post look like it was an attack on anybody? If so, I truly apologize. If it seemed as if my post (with specifics about things both laypersons and HCP's do- with "being" both at the same time an impossibility) was directed solely at you, then I apologize. I thought that it was clear that it was a general "reply", but if not, mea culpe.
I thought that by including the pitfalls possible on both the side of laypeople and of HCP's I was being (at least moderately) clear that I was speaking to, well, everybody.
That the HCP's that respond to posts need to be aware that the terms used by people are going to mean different things to them, and thats ok. Be aware, ask questions to differentiate and settle the matter, and move on.
That the laypeople who are speaking to their HCP's need to be aware that they can be, unintentionally, misleading at times.
The problem becomes compounded when a conversation is occuring in "mixed company", if you will. I'm pretty sure, though I'm open to correction, that I never said that qualifications need to happen in every single conversation. And where did I say these "issues" I've seen were always life threatening?!?!
There are issues that I've seen arise that were, indeed, life threatening. A foreign-born Muslim man thinking that "chemotherapy" only referred to a chemo pump, which would, in his opinion, prevent him from saying his prayers and so said no. Again. And again. And again. Until it was clarified, once his (understandably) irate daughter became involved, that he could just have chemotherapy from an IV for a finite period of time- this he was ok with.
But other times ended up being fairly comical and it was NBD; a proper diagnoses was impossible, however, without a clarification of the mix up.
I was not scolding one side or the other. I was simply saying: hey, when we talk about medicine with trained professionals and lay people involved in the same conversation we may get some miscommunication based on different people hearing different things. If we can avoid this, great. Maybe we can't. Its at least something to keep in mind.
If you aren't professionally trained, I would recommend trying NOT to throw around words that you may or may not fully understand. If you ARE professionally trained, I would recommend trying to remember that folk will throw around words that they don't fully understand, so be accommodating and work to clarify meaning.
Was that really such a douche thing to insinuate/flat out say?
Again, chill. 
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climbingam
Mar 12, 2009, 1:33 PM
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OMG WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU!!!!
WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM??
WHY AM I SHOUTING?!?!?!?
please, j/k here!
ok, so that was why I said " I only take a minor issue in how it might relate to my point. "
the rest was more of my general take on the google sentence at the end but I definitely could have been more "chill". Didn't think you'd take it like I was that hardcore but I see how it might read that way. For that I apologize.
Cheers!
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onceahardman
Mar 12, 2009, 3:08 PM
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In reply to: hairline fracture a fracture without separation of the fragments, the line of break being hairlike, as seen sometimes in the skull. Syn: capillary fracture By definition, this type of fracture cannot penetrate because it is only on the surface of the bone and is, very very tiny with neither side of the fracture out of place
When you say, "by definition", and then your included definition does not include the point you are making, it weakens your overall point.
"Hairline fracture" is one thing. Thank you for providing its definition.
"Compound fracture" is something else. The terms are not mutually exclusive.
In reply to: fracture, compound, n a fracture in which the bony structures are exposed to an external environment.
So...let's say Joe Blow is out bouldering on some sharp-edged volcanic choss. He falls, suffering a severe inversion sprain of the right ankle. Concurrently, he suffers a hairline fracture of his distal fibula (a not uncommon occurrance.) His lateral malleolus strikes a very sharp edge of talus at the base, slicing it to the bone.
He now has, "by definition", a compound hairline fracture.
There is NOTHING in the definition of "compound" stating that a jagged end of a displaced fracture must be poking through the skin. "Compound" refers to the integrity of the skin, and is severe because it allows bacterial access to the inside of the bone, as has happened to Mr. Blow, in my case study.
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matthewsuckerpunch
Mar 12, 2009, 4:11 PM
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wow, you guys really could have done this elsewhere. i really didnt post this with this kindof response in mind but i guess i can see where my not being 100% specific could make a bunch of intelligent people get mad at me. for this i am sorry. to be truely honest with all of you, when i goto my "HCP" i never throw around "big words" like im mr. king shit and know what im talking about. i tell him/her that i was doing this and this happend... this is where it hurts the most, what do you think? im sorry all of you got so bent out of shape over my mis'use of words (i knew what i meant and i guess that was the problem all along) but you all really need to learn how to take it easy.
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onceahardman
Mar 12, 2009, 4:19 PM
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Hi Matt...
Sorry for the thread drift. For the record, I thought your post was fine. Someone else had a problem with it, and then a third person had a problem with the correction.
I tried to get some factual info on the table.
Again, sorry. I'm glad you got a favorable diagnosis. A bone contusion (bruise) can still be pretty disabling for up to 6 months, especially if you keep walking on it a lot. It will heal, but you can't keep falling on it, or even walking on it so much that it gets more painful.
Good luck, let me know if you have more questions, and I'll try to stay on track.
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matthewsuckerpunch
Mar 12, 2009, 4:30 PM
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thanks man, i just didnt want it to be another argument thread. i was just glad my leg wasnt really messed up so i thought id post about it. simple as that.
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boracus
Mar 12, 2009, 5:00 PM
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[.image wrote: http://www.rockclimbing.com/images/photos/assets/4/412934-large_DSCN2136.JPG[/image] Sorry to hear about the destroyed ankle but I must say that's a pretty sweet surgery shot. Glad to hear that you're back to playing outside again. cheers, BA
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altelis
Mar 12, 2009, 5:12 PM
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yea, matt- i guess the tone of my posts came across badly, without intention.
i wasn't accusing you (or anybody) of throwing around "big words". my point, which is NON-JUDGMENTAL, applies to all technical words.
if you are a clinical psychologist the word "anxious" has a very, very particular meaning, as defined by DSM. if you were to be in therapy and mentioned that you were feeling "anxious" about an upcoming test, you are probably going to mean something similar to the DSM definition of anxious but not EXACTLY what that definition means. It is your therapist's job to recognize that fact and ask follow up questions to figure out if your description deserves a diagnosis of "anxiety" or if indeed you are feeling something that the DSM would diagnose as something else. Or perhaps what you are feeling is totally normative and needs no diagnosis at all. Nothing wrong with you saying you felt "anxious" at all, and "anxious" really isn't a "big word"; just means different thing written down in a therapist's notes than it does in common conversation.
OAH pointed out another common mis-match of technical and common descriptions not exactly matching up. Although this is a slightly "bigger word" than anxious, the common understanding of "compound fracture" is that the bone is fractured to such an extent as to cause sharp edges of bone to stick out of the skin. But as OAH as so eloquently shown, while this does fall under the category of "compound fracture", a bone with a hairline fracture that also happens to have been exposed through the skin due to a laceration also falls under the definition of "compound fracture".
Bullet Point of My Last Three Posts
HCP's have a technical language. Laypeople have the english language. Terms from the technical language happen to be in english, but their "english" definition is not necessarily the same as their "medical" definition. It is nobody's fault for using the term according to the language they are using, but when speaking the same Language (english, spanish, etc.) between people with differing subsets of that Language (medical, lay, etc.) there may be misunderstandings. Just be aware. Thats it....
Sorry everybody thinks I'm picking on them. I'm really, really, not.
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fxgranite
Mar 12, 2009, 5:25 PM
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durangoclimber wrote: You lucky SOB !!! I broke mine in half. Here is a pic of the results. Count yourself lucky. I'll never be the same but hey I am climbing again. [image]http://www.rockclimbing.com/images/photos/assets/4/412934-large_DSCN2136.JPG[/image] Wanna see more pics from the disaster? www.lifeuphigh.blogspot.com Scroll down on the main page.
SCREW YOU! Why must I always look at these things?? *Vomits*
on a side note, congradulations on only being partly injured
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onceahardman
Mar 12, 2009, 5:41 PM
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In reply to: All this knit picking in the thread is absurd.
robdotcalm, it's "nit picking", not "knit picking"...
You are WRONG! You FAIL!
hee hee!
Here's a link to totally destroy the thread:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nit-picking
(This post was edited by onceahardman on Mar 12, 2009, 5:53 PM)
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aerili
Mar 12, 2009, 10:06 PM
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To finish contributing to the pointless side topic demise of this thread, I shall add the following reply:
climbingam wrote: Given the context and the common colloquial usage of "hairline fracture" it's obvious what he meant when he used both in the sentence and left out "hairline". I personally didn't need him to say "incomplete fracture" to get the point across.
I wasn't responding to his second post where he inserted the word "hairline." I was responding to his first post where he stated:
In reply to: thought i broke my ankle last week while bouldering. up until last night i couldnt put weight on it and [but] everyone said i may have just fractured it.
Okay, got that straightened out. Now then:
climbingam wrote: I've spent weeks reading your help with injures and you're great but here???
Sometimes I have to be the devil too, you know. I cannot be wonderful all the time; I have to express my evilness as well in order to be complete.
Also, today is my birthday so I am using my free pass of the year to get away with ANYTHING!!!!
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coolcat83
Mar 12, 2009, 10:34 PM
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aerili wrote: To finish contributing to the pointless side topic demise of this thread, I shall add the following reply: climbingam wrote: Given the context and the common colloquial usage of "hairline fracture" it's obvious what he meant when he used both in the sentence and left out "hairline". I personally didn't need him to say "incomplete fracture" to get the point across. I wasn't responding to his second post where he inserted the word "hairline." I was responding to his first post where he stated: In reply to: thought i broke my ankle last week while bouldering. up until last night i couldnt put weight on it and [but] everyone said i may have just fractured it.Okay, got that straightened out. Now then: climbingam wrote: I've spent weeks reading your help with injures and you're great but here??? Sometimes I have to be the devil too, you know. I cannot be wonderful all the time; I have to express my evilness as well in order to be complete. Also, today is my birthday so I am using my free pass of the year to get away with ANYTHING!!!!
happy birthday!
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Grizvok
Mar 12, 2009, 10:54 PM
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I wasn't "nit picking" at anything and definitely not the OP since he specifically said "thought i broke my ankle last week while bouldering. up until last night i couldnt put weight on it and everyone said i may have just fractured it." Meaning I was informing him that his friends were incorrect in hoping that he "just fractured it."
And if you really want to nit pick the term "hairline" was never ever used (in the original post).
(This post was edited by Grizvok on Mar 12, 2009, 11:01 PM)
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N_Oo_B
Mar 12, 2009, 11:34 PM
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aerili wrote: Also, today is my birthday so I am using my free pass of the year to get away with ANYTHING!!!!
happy bday
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