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blueeyedclimber
Apr 3, 2009, 10:06 PM
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billcoe_ wrote: wonderwoman wrote: I once climbed with someone who stated that I should get on really hard things so that she could follow them. And that if she couldn't make it up a section that I should just haul her up. I told her that I wasn't her damned sherpa!  pffft: Wonderwoman could do this easily. 
Yes, she COULD do it, but Wonderwoman is sick of carrying everyone on her sexy shoulders. She's got a new attitude and she's telling all you people to suck it up! 
Btw, if you are going to follow someone on overhanging terrain, you should know how to prussik.
If you must haul, and your partner is conscious and his/her arms still work, the most effective way to do this is an assisted 2:1. (This only works if you have enough rope to drop a loop down to your second). First your second clips a locker to his/her belay loop. THen you anchor an end of the rope to the anchor and drop a loop. Your second clips that loop to their locker. Your second pulls on the rope attached to the anchor and you pull on the side going to your belay device (much preferable if you are belaying with an autolocking belay off of the anchor). As you pull up, feed rope through the belay. This also works even better if you have two people at the belay. One to focus on belaying and the other to focus on hauling.
Josh
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Rudmin
Apr 3, 2009, 10:25 PM
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blueeyedclimber wrote: billcoe_ wrote: wonderwoman wrote: I once climbed with someone who stated that I should get on really hard things so that she could follow them. And that if she couldn't make it up a section that I should just haul her up. I told her that I wasn't her damned sherpa! pffft: Wonderwoman could do this easily. Yes, she COULD do it, but Wonderwoman is sick of carrying everyone on her sexy shoulders. She's got a new attitude and she's telling all you people to suck it up! Btw, if you are going to follow someone on overhanging terrain, you should know how to prussik. If you must haul, and your partner is conscious and his/her arms still work, the most effective way to do this is an assisted 2:1. (This only works if you have enough rope to drop a loop down to your second). First your second clips a locker to his/her belay loop. THen you anchor an end of the rope to the anchor and drop a loop. Your second clips that loop to their locker. Your second pulls on the rope attached to the anchor and you pull on the side going to your belay device (much preferable if you are belaying with an autolocking belay off of the anchor). As you pull up, feed rope through the belay. This also works even better if you have two people at the belay. One to focus on belaying and the other to focus on hauling. Josh
What you have just described is a 1:1 system with two people pulling on it. Either you described the system you want poorly, or you don't understand it. I am assuming the former because of the way you describe dropping a loop and clipping it to the second's harness the same way you might do it for a z haul.
(This post was edited by Rudmin on Apr 3, 2009, 10:36 PM)
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DFCLIMB
Apr 3, 2009, 10:55 PM
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Dropping a loop to the second and using a pulley/ratchet, such as a GRIGRI, is an assisted hoist. For this method, the second does most of the work. If using a prusik to set-up a 3:1 haul, the leader does most of the work unless the second can ascend to some degree.
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cracklover
Apr 4, 2009, 1:07 AM
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Rudmin wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: billcoe_ wrote: wonderwoman wrote: I once climbed with someone who stated that I should get on really hard things so that she could follow them. And that if she couldn't make it up a section that I should just haul her up. I told her that I wasn't her damned sherpa! pffft: Wonderwoman could do this easily. Yes, she COULD do it, but Wonderwoman is sick of carrying everyone on her sexy shoulders. She's got a new attitude and she's telling all you people to suck it up! Btw, if you are going to follow someone on overhanging terrain, you should know how to prussik. If you must haul, and your partner is conscious and his/her arms still work, the most effective way to do this is an assisted 2:1. (This only works if you have enough rope to drop a loop down to your second). First your second clips a locker to his/her belay loop. THen you anchor an end of the rope to the anchor and drop a loop. Your second clips that loop to their locker. Your second pulls on the rope attached to the anchor and you pull on the side going to your belay device (much preferable if you are belaying with an autolocking belay off of the anchor). As you pull up, feed rope through the belay. This also works even better if you have two people at the belay. One to focus on belaying and the other to focus on hauling. Josh What you have just described is a 1:1 system with two people pulling on it. Either you described the system you want poorly, or you don't understand it. I am assuming the former because of the way you describe dropping a loop and clipping it to the second's harness the same way you might do it for a z haul.
No, he accurately described a 2:1. No offense, BEC, but it was described better by mchristie on page one of this thread.
GO
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Rudmin
Apr 4, 2009, 1:18 AM
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cracklover wrote: Rudmin wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: billcoe_ wrote: wonderwoman wrote: I once climbed with someone who stated that I should get on really hard things so that she could follow them. And that if she couldn't make it up a section that I should just haul her up. I told her that I wasn't her damned sherpa! pffft: Wonderwoman could do this easily. Yes, she COULD do it, but Wonderwoman is sick of carrying everyone on her sexy shoulders. She's got a new attitude and she's telling all you people to suck it up! Btw, if you are going to follow someone on overhanging terrain, you should know how to prussik. If you must haul, and your partner is conscious and his/her arms still work, the most effective way to do this is an assisted 2:1. (This only works if you have enough rope to drop a loop down to your second). First your second clips a locker to his/her belay loop. THen you anchor an end of the rope to the anchor and drop a loop. Your second clips that loop to their locker. Your second pulls on the rope attached to the anchor and you pull on the side going to your belay device (much preferable if you are belaying with an autolocking belay off of the anchor). As you pull up, feed rope through the belay. This also works even better if you have two people at the belay. One to focus on belaying and the other to focus on hauling. Josh What you have just described is a 1:1 system with two people pulling on it. Either you described the system you want poorly, or you don't understand it. I am assuming the former because of the way you describe dropping a loop and clipping it to the second's harness the same way you might do it for a z haul. No, he accurately described a 2:1. No offense, BEC, but it was described better by mchristie on page one of this thread. GO
Let's see shall we. According to his words, the second "pulls on the rope attached to the anchor". He is pulling on the anchor which is the same as pulling on the cliff, 1:1 work ratio. The leader pulls up on "the side going to your belay device". This is the same rope he was just belaying with. Do you get a 2:1 advantage when you belay?
Also, according to his description, one end of the rope is tied the anchor, it goes down through the biner on the second and back up to the belayer. The other end of the rope is obviously tied to the second. It goes up and locks off at the belay device. Where is all the extra rope in between the two ends?
The only way a 2:1 advantage could be obtained in this situation is if the belayer hauled up on the free end of the loop going down to the second's biner using one hand, and pulled in slack rope going down to the second's harness through the belay device with the other hand.
Oh and what Mcchristie described was a 3:1 system
(This post was edited by Rudmin on Apr 4, 2009, 2:09 AM)
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PJA7
Apr 4, 2009, 2:43 AM
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Rudmin wrote: cracklover wrote: Rudmin wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: billcoe_ wrote: wonderwoman wrote: I once climbed with someone who stated that I should get on really hard things so that she could follow them. And that if she couldn't make it up a section that I should just haul her up. I told her that I wasn't her damned sherpa! pffft: Wonderwoman could do this easily. Yes, she COULD do it, but Wonderwoman is sick of carrying everyone on her sexy shoulders. She's got a new attitude and she's telling all you people to suck it up! Btw, if you are going to follow someone on overhanging terrain, you should know how to prussik. If you must haul, and your partner is conscious and his/her arms still work, the most effective way to do this is an assisted 2:1. (This only works if you have enough rope to drop a loop down to your second). First your second clips a locker to his/her belay loop. THen you anchor an end of the rope to the anchor and drop a loop. Your second clips that loop to their locker. Your second pulls on the rope attached to the anchor and you pull on the side going to your belay device (much preferable if you are belaying with an autolocking belay off of the anchor). As you pull up, feed rope through the belay. This also works even better if you have two people at the belay. One to focus on belaying and the other to focus on hauling. Josh What you have just described is a 1:1 system with two people pulling on it. Either you described the system you want poorly, or you don't understand it. I am assuming the former because of the way you describe dropping a loop and clipping it to the second's harness the same way you might do it for a z haul. No, he accurately described a 2:1. No offense, BEC, but it was described better by mchristie on page one of this thread. GO Let's see shall we. According to his words, the second "pulls on the rope attached to the anchor". He is pulling on the anchor which is the same as pulling on the cliff, 1:1 work ratio. The leader pulls up on "the side going to your belay device". This is the same rope he was just belaying with. Do you get a 2:1 advantage when you belay? Also, according to his description, one end of the rope is tied the anchor, it goes down through the biner on the second and back up to the belayer. The other end of the rope is obviously tied to the second. It goes up and locks off at the belay device. Where is all the extra rope in between the two ends? The only way a 2:1 advantage could be obtained in this situation is if the belayer hauled up on the free end of the loop going down to the second's biner using one hand, and pulled in slack rope going down to the second's harness through the belay device with the other hand. Oh and what Mcchristie described was a 3:1 system
Unless I misinterpreted what BEC said, his system would give a 2:1 mechanical advantage, and it's pretty basic physics. Basically, the second is attached to one end of the rope and pulling on the other end, and this gives two upward forces of tension for one downward force of tension. It's 2:1 assisted because the person belaying at the top is assing in pulling the second end of the rope (that person does not have any mechanical advantage in the force he applies).
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Rudmin
Apr 4, 2009, 3:08 AM
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PJA7 wrote: Rudmin wrote: cracklover wrote: Rudmin wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: billcoe_ wrote: wonderwoman wrote: I once climbed with someone who stated that I should get on really hard things so that she could follow them. And that if she couldn't make it up a section that I should just haul her up. I told her that I wasn't her damned sherpa! pffft: Wonderwoman could do this easily. Yes, she COULD do it, but Wonderwoman is sick of carrying everyone on her sexy shoulders. She's got a new attitude and she's telling all you people to suck it up! Btw, if you are going to follow someone on overhanging terrain, you should know how to prussik. If you must haul, and your partner is conscious and his/her arms still work, the most effective way to do this is an assisted 2:1. (This only works if you have enough rope to drop a loop down to your second). First your second clips a locker to his/her belay loop. THen you anchor an end of the rope to the anchor and drop a loop. Your second clips that loop to their locker. Your second pulls on the rope attached to the anchor and you pull on the side going to your belay device (much preferable if you are belaying with an autolocking belay off of the anchor). As you pull up, feed rope through the belay. This also works even better if you have two people at the belay. One to focus on belaying and the other to focus on hauling. Josh What you have just described is a 1:1 system with two people pulling on it. Either you described the system you want poorly, or you don't understand it. I am assuming the former because of the way you describe dropping a loop and clipping it to the second's harness the same way you might do it for a z haul. No, he accurately described a 2:1. No offense, BEC, but it was described better by mchristie on page one of this thread. GO Let's see shall we. According to his words, the second "pulls on the rope attached to the anchor". He is pulling on the anchor which is the same as pulling on the cliff, 1:1 work ratio. The leader pulls up on "the side going to your belay device". This is the same rope he was just belaying with. Do you get a 2:1 advantage when you belay? Also, according to his description, one end of the rope is tied the anchor, it goes down through the biner on the second and back up to the belayer. The other end of the rope is obviously tied to the second. It goes up and locks off at the belay device. Where is all the extra rope in between the two ends? The only way a 2:1 advantage could be obtained in this situation is if the belayer hauled up on the free end of the loop going down to the second's biner using one hand, and pulled in slack rope going down to the second's harness through the belay device with the other hand. Oh and what Mcchristie described was a 3:1 system Unless I misinterpreted what BEC said, his system would give a 2:1 mechanical advantage, and it's pretty basic physics. Basically, the second is attached to one end of the rope and pulling on the other end, and this gives two upward forces of tension for one downward force of tension. It's 2:1 assisted because the person belaying at the top is assing in pulling the second end of the rope (that person does not have any mechanical advantage in the force he applies).
Even though that isn't what BEC described, it still wouldn't work unless the belay was a reverso or atc-guide because the leader still has their belay device running through that rope that the second is pulling on. If that device is an atc, the second will just pull it down until he is pulling on the leader's harness.
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chossmonkey
Apr 4, 2009, 11:56 AM
Post #35 of 56
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I use a 3:1 pulley system. You only need a locking/blocking belay device, a nylon sling/cord, and a couple biners.
Unless they are really light, you are super strong, or you have a really good stance you probably won't be able to haul them up completely, but they will be nearly weightless when they try climbing.
If you can rig a 5:1 you can haul them right up. It is more of a PITA to set up and use than a 3:1 though
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cracklover
Apr 4, 2009, 11:43 PM
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rudmin, it's a pretty straightforward 2:1 described by both posters. If you really want I can draw a picture.
It also happens to be the second simplest way to help a second through a short crux (the simplest being to give them a birthday-party belay), so it's worth understanding.
GO
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olderic
Apr 4, 2009, 11:53 PM
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It's 2:1. It was 30 year ago (when I wazs a tad), it is today and it will be tomorrow, OK not fully 2:1 because of friction loss but assuming pure Newtonian physics it is. Word.
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misanthropic_nihilist
Apr 5, 2009, 1:49 AM
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A lot of people have mentioned "read Fasulo's 'Self Rescue' then practice, practice, practice," and "it's hard to haul your second." I wholeheartedly agree with both of those statements, but I don't think the second one has been emphasized enough.
I've practiced and taught all kinds of self rescue at my local wall. Most of the hauling I did there was with my reverso, on a dead vertical wall, with no rope drag, from a belay ledge. It's great practice for learning the systems, but sets you up to be sandbagged in the real world.
In October I was climbing Unimpeachable Groping at Red Rock with a friend. I led P4, which has a 5.10 roof 15 feet off a huge belay ledge. While she's following, she falls at the base of the roof and is swinging in midair. She was a pretty strong climber, I had practiced lots of self rescue with her beforehand, and she even had prussiks on her. But the free-hanging exposure freaked her out and she froze up. I could have easily just lowered her back to the ledge, but our friends above us were meeting us at the top of the route so we could double-rope rappel. So we had to keep going up.
I was at a hanging belay. She was free-hanging and couldn't assist me at all. The route wandered a bit, but the rope was right on the edge of the roof creating a ton of drag. With all that drag and 100 feet of dynamic rope between us, I could only lift her about 4 inches with each reset of the 3:1 pulley system. And it was hard work.
I believe 5:1 systems are mostly useless in the vertical climbing context. They require more gear and working space than we typically have at our disposal. Plus, without pulleys you're probably getting about the same MA as with a 3:1 anyway. It's great to know how to do all those advanced systems, but even better to know when they're appropriate.
To make a long story short: hauling in the real world is hard. Much harder than you think.
One thing that nobody has mentioned yet.... If you have an unconscious/unhelpful/incompetent follower, make sure you're not hauling them into a roof, crack, or that bomber tricam you placed right after the crux. That's right, if you're planning to haul an unconscious second all the way to the belay you have to down-prussik, clean all the gear, then prussik back up and haul. Good luck if the route traverses or goes through roofs.
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rgold
Apr 5, 2009, 3:37 AM
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MN, I hope folks listen to you. I think your experience is typical of real-world hauling situations, which is to say that it often---I'd say usually---isn't practical because of the combination of friction in the improvised system, which right away reduces a 3:1 to more like 2:1, and friction against rock edges, which is exponential in the angle of bend.
That being the case, going up on a route thinking in the back of your mind that you can actually haul someone any distance up it with an improvised pulley system is arguably a dangerous frame of mind to be in, since it could lure you into an extremely exhausting and time-consuming exercise in futility.
Bottom line is, the party members have to know how to prussik, exposure or not. But if you climb with double ropes, the second can prussik on one strand with a belay from the other strand, which ought to go a long way in relieving psychic distress. It also might help, if one knows ahead of time that there is a possibility of hanging in space, to have the entire prussiking system rigged, on the rope, and tucked away ready to go if necessary, as for glacier travel.
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cracklover
Apr 5, 2009, 9:00 PM
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Rudmin wrote: cracklover wrote: rudmin, it's a pretty straightforward 2:1 described by both posters. If you really want I can draw a picture. I will draw you a picture of exactly what BEC described. You point out to me where the picture doesn't match his words or where the system makes a 2:1. [image]http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/5197/haul.jpg[/image] 1. Second is hanging. Everything is set up normally. 2. "First your second clips a locker to his/her belay loop. THen you anchor an end of the rope to the anchor and drop a loop. Your second clips that loop to their locker." 3. "Your second pulls on the rope attached to the anchor and you pull on the side going to your belay device (much preferable if you are belaying with an autolocking belay off of the anchor). As you pull up, feed rope through the belay."
I was running out the door as I read it, and didn't realize that BEC said to pull up on the strand going to your the device. That's obviously wrong, unless he skipped a step in which he put a second belay device on the anchor. The leader should be pulling up on the loop of rope that went down to the stuck second. Everything else looks right, though.
And you are correct, too, that the version using the brake strand off the belay device on the anchor is a 3:1. That's what I get for reading too quickly!
BTW - I agree with Dingus and RG and others that the best bet is to avoid all this nonsense in the first place. In ten years of multipitch free climbing, I've had to prusik once, and I've had partners who have had to prusik two or three times. But I've never yet had to do a true haul in the middle of a free climb. And while I have a few tricks up my sleeve in case I ever do, I hope that day never comes (for a whole lot of reasons).
GO
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oldandintheway
Apr 7, 2009, 2:05 AM
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Knyte260 wrote: For some reason, I've searched through many of my climbing books and the best I have found to answer this question is that there "is a way to set up a hauling system to raise a second". However, it never went into any detail about this. This situation would arise if on a multi pitch climb, or any belay from the top. If my second does not know how to ascend a rope, or isn't carrying the gear to do so, what assistance can be given from the top?
You're freakin kidding me right?
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no_email_entered
Apr 7, 2009, 2:42 AM
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majid_sabet wrote: cut the rope and pick them up at the base.
agreed but make sure you've topped out-----
----oh and i'm not sure what books the OP is not reading but this one is quite fine to not read also.
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blueeyedclimber
Apr 7, 2009, 1:39 PM
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Rudmin wrote: cracklover wrote: rudmin, it's a pretty straightforward 2:1 described by both posters. If you really want I can draw a picture. I will draw you a picture of exactly what BEC described. You point out to me where the picture doesn't match his words or where the system makes a 2:1. [image]http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/5197/haul.jpg[/image] 1. Second is hanging. Everything is set up normally. 2. "First your second clips a locker to his/her belay loop. THen you anchor an end of the rope to the anchor and drop a loop. Your second clips that loop to their locker." 3. "Your second pulls on the rope attached to the anchor and you pull on the side going to your belay device (much preferable if you are belaying with an autolocking belay off of the anchor). As you pull up, feed rope through the belay."
I think I just got eye strain looking at your diagram, but it's better than I could do, so whatever. First, I was envisioning belaying off the anchor not off my harness. The leader would pull up on the strand going to the follower, which is not what you show here. I know I said going to the belay device. What I forgot to mention is that I meant the rope that that the follower clips into his biner and is redirected back to the belay. I apologize for leaving that out. But having said that, that is a 2:1 (ignoring friction loss), correct? It certainly isn't a 1:1 (which would have no mechanical advantage).
I am no engineer, so if I try to argue, i will undoubtedly get tripped up by my own description, BUT I have done this in practice and it does work and it ABSOLUTELY provides mechanical advantage.
But, yes, I agree with EVERYONE who has already said you should know how to prussik.
Josh
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cracklover
Apr 7, 2009, 4:10 PM
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wonderwoman wrote: rgold wrote: But if you climb with double ropes, the second can prussik on one strand with a belay from the other strand, which ought to go a long way in relieving psychic distress. That sounds like a pretty good idea, that I really could have implemented last season where I became the unfortunate prussik expert! Darn those Gunks roofs! 
Just be sure that if you've got one rope going up, and the other going somewhat sideways, you must prusik on the one going up (yes, I've made this mistake before).
GO
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wonderwoman
Apr 7, 2009, 4:35 PM
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cracklover wrote: wonderwoman wrote: rgold wrote: But if you climb with double ropes, the second can prussik on one strand with a belay from the other strand, which ought to go a long way in relieving psychic distress. That sounds like a pretty good idea, that I really could have implemented last season where I became the unfortunate prussik expert! Darn those Gunks roofs! Just be sure that if you've got one rope going up, and the other going somewhat sideways, you must prusik on the one going up (yes, I've made this mistake before). GO
Take a nice swing?
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gunkiemike
Apr 8, 2009, 3:14 PM
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cracklover wrote: wonderwoman wrote: rgold wrote: But if you climb with double ropes, the second can prussik on one strand with a belay from the other strand, which ought to go a long way in relieving psychic distress. That sounds like a pretty good idea, that I really could have implemented last season where I became the unfortunate prussik expert! Darn those Gunks roofs! Just be sure that if you've got one rope going up, and the other going somewhat sideways, you must prusik on the one going up (yes, I've made this mistake before). GO
I had a front row seat for a funny prussiking event years ago. The climber was unable to pull a crux overhang, and needed to prussik. But he was on doubles and PUT ONE PRUSSIK KNOT ON EACH ROPE. Rope stretch being what it is, he stairmastered in place for several minutes and went absolutely nowhere.
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rtwilli4
Apr 8, 2009, 3:21 PM
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ja1484 wrote: It amazes the shit out of me that there are people out there climbing without these skills. No wonder there are so many landowners leery about granting access. Do your fucking homework people.
agreed
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kachoong
Apr 8, 2009, 3:32 PM
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gunkiemike wrote: cracklover wrote: wonderwoman wrote: rgold wrote: But if you climb with double ropes, the second can prussik on one strand with a belay from the other strand, which ought to go a long way in relieving psychic distress. That sounds like a pretty good idea, that I really could have implemented last season where I became the unfortunate prussik expert! Darn those Gunks roofs! Just be sure that if you've got one rope going up, and the other going somewhat sideways, you must prusik on the one going up (yes, I've made this mistake before). GO I had a front row seat for a funny prussiking event years ago. The climber was unable to pull a crux overhang, and needed to prussik. But he was on doubles and PUT ONE PRUSSIK KNOT ON EACH ROPE. Rope stretch being what it is, he stairmastered in place for several minutes and went absolutely nowhere.
That's pretty funny! I bet he looked like a marionette.
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