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the_leech
Sep 19, 2009, 4:07 AM
Post #51 of 150
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jeepnphreak wrote: I think that fixed draws is really dumb anyway.
Wow.
The idiot has spoken.
And no more needs to be said.
This thread has concluded. You can all go home now.
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el_layclimber
Sep 19, 2009, 5:03 AM
Post #52 of 150
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jt512 wrote: TerminalVelocity wrote: Who cares about fixed draws... and trads, as usual. Jay
And you, the guy who started the thread.
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hafilax
Sep 19, 2009, 5:06 AM
Post #53 of 150
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Call the police and have the guy charged with reckless endangerment. That'll teach him a lesson.
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reno
Sep 19, 2009, 3:18 PM
Post #54 of 150
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shadowsandwich wrote: jeepnphreak wrote: Iam not sure if its my area or what but the ONLY fixed anything is the bolt hangers and anchors. All climbers must provide there own gear to climb. there are no fixed draws I think that fixed draws is really dumb anyway. Besides with the various crappy gear that people keep talking about that is out there what idiot would blindly trust anything fixed that had nylon in the equation. with your own gear you know the history and condition of the equipment. It's disturbing that this kind of incoherency no longer phases me.
Fazes.
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billcoe_
Sep 19, 2009, 3:30 PM
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cracklover wrote: .... The last draw, as you turn the corner on the big roof (people fall here as they're getting really pumped and find themselves on small holds) caught my attention. As I approached it, I thought it looked a little funny. Here's how it looked as it was hanging on the route: I've circled in red what caught my eye - a little fuzz sticking out from behind.  I didn't like the looks of it, and there was enough room on the bolt hanger, so I clipped another draw over it and clipped into that instead. On my way down I took a closer look. Here's what it looked like when I turned it over to look at the back side:  ....
Nice short term solution. A better solution would be to either take a hammer and whack it once or twice so the tiny offensive rugosite is flat (opps, is that and ethical issue called "Chipping the route"?) or do the same thing with a rock if you don't have hammer. Otherwise, it's a matter of time till your replacement looks like that...with the addition of 15 layers of ripped up tape of course:-)
I like your story better than Jays rant.
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suprasoup
Sep 19, 2009, 3:50 PM
Post #57 of 150
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TerminalVelocity wrote: jt512 wrote: squishy654 wrote: jt512 wrote: suprasoup wrote: jt512 wrote: suprasoup wrote: Whatever. Your post. He's not obligated to leave decent gear any more than you are obligated to take his crap down. You are entitled to your opinion, no matter how selfish it might be. Jay Like I said. Whatever. I have my own draws. I put up my own climbs. I put up climbs for other people. I let other people use my draws. I take down my draws. I go home. I pack out what I pack in. It's that simple. I applaud you for taking down those dangerous draws and replacing them with your own. But as I've already stated I don't like seeing them up there. It's unsightly and unnecessary. Call me selfish for believing that we, as climbers, should practice LEAVE NO TRACE and try to minimize our impact on the environment. We're not the only ones who use those areas. Actually, climbers are the only people in that area. Jay And you have climbers here saying take them down...I am one of them as well... You're not one of the climbers at this crag, so you don't get a vote. Jay Who cares about fixed draws, they're alot more sightly than urban development. To those of you causing a ruckus about fixed draws, why don't you instead go around and clean the graffiti off of the crags and picking about all the trash and broken glass. Unless you're willing to do all this, I don't think you should be bitching about fixed gear.
Since I'm one of those causing a ruckus
The Temple. Scrubbing down the holds.
Cleaning Trash at the Muralla
My own post about trash on the Muralla
http://mountainproject.com/...lla_grande/106485471
I pack out trash on the Muralla on a near weekly basis. Been doing it for years. I clean the Temple every chance I'm out there, same with the Enchanted Towers, Tijeras Big Block and many others.
For the record, I have ALWAYS packed out more than what I packed in. I do this in any area I go to, local or otherwise. I don't ask anyone to do something that I don't do myself.
NOW that that is out of the way...
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TerminalVelocity
Sep 19, 2009, 3:53 PM
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lena_chita wrote: jeepnphreak wrote: Iam not sure if its my area or what but the ONLY fixed anything is the bolt hangers and anchors. All climbers must provide there own gear to climb. there are no fixed draws I think that fixed draws is really dumb anyway. Besides with the various crappy gear that people keep talking about that is out there what idiot would blindly trust anything fixed that had nylon in the equation. with your own gear you know the history and condition of the equipment. This is what you climb: [image]http://www.rockclimbing.com/images/photos/assets/2/395392-largest_rachel_up_the_fatman.jpg[/image] This is what some other people climb: [image]http://www.rockclimbing.com/images/photos/assets/6/217256-largest_21742.jpg[/image] In both cases you have a rope to give you an idea of the vertical plumbline vs. rock angle. If you don't see why leaving draws makes more sense in the second scenario, then I guess no one can help you.
If you had a picture of the same area as the second picture but in peak fall foliage, it would have made a much more compelling arguement.
With my stupidity put aside, if you don't like fixed draws don't climb there, go find your mythical untouched rock.
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jt512
Sep 19, 2009, 6:48 PM
Post #60 of 150
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lena_chita wrote: jeepnphreak wrote: Iam not sure if its my area or what but the ONLY fixed anything is the bolt hangers and anchors. All climbers must provide there own gear to climb. there are no fixed draws I think that fixed draws is really dumb anyway. Besides with the various crappy gear that people keep talking about that is out there what idiot would blindly trust anything fixed that had nylon in the equation. with your own gear you know the history and condition of the equipment. This is what you climb:  This is what some other people climb:  In both cases you have a rope to give you an idea of the vertical plumbline vs. rock angle. If you don't see why leaving draws makes more sense in the second scenario, then I guess no one can help you.
Ooh. Nice one.
Jay
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jt512
Sep 19, 2009, 6:57 PM
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suprasoup wrote: Enchanted Towers: White Queen (5.13b/c) One of my favorite climbs. I've "red" pointed this climb more than 50 times, not including the other variations to this climb. Unfortunately for me I can only "pink" point it now because someone saw the need to place fixed draws on the route.
It's just so bizarre that you consider it "unfortunate."
In reply to: The Pit. God walks among us. Incidently Brian called the photo "Supra walks among us" Wonder why.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Sep 19, 2009, 6:58 PM)
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sungam
Sep 19, 2009, 7:01 PM
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jt512 wrote: Me too. That route isn't that hard. Jay
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jt512
Sep 19, 2009, 7:07 PM
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sungam wrote: jt512 wrote: Me too. That route isn't that hard. Jay If it's the one I'm thinking of, I couldn't get past the 2nd bolt. or was it the third... not sure. hard as nails.
Well, I think there are only four bolts, so you did half of it!
Jay
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sungam
Sep 19, 2009, 7:08 PM
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jt512 wrote: sungam wrote: jt512 wrote: Me too. That route isn't that hard. Jay If it's the one I'm thinking of, I couldn't get past the 2nd bolt. or was it the third... not sure. hard as nails. Well, I think there are only four bolts, so you did half of it! Jay
I climb 5.7! Yes!
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jt512
Sep 19, 2009, 7:10 PM
Post #65 of 150
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sungam wrote: jt512 wrote: sungam wrote: jt512 wrote: Me too. That route isn't that hard. Jay If it's the one I'm thinking of, I couldn't get past the 2nd bolt. or was it the third... not sure. hard as nails. Well, I think there are only four bolts, so you did half of it! Jay Yes, I meant to add in "did it only have 4 bolts?". Wait, half of 13... I climb 5.7! Yes!
That route is officially only 12b, and actually only 12a. Sorry, dude, 5.6.
Jay
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sungam
Sep 19, 2009, 7:14 PM
Post #66 of 150
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jt512 wrote: sungam wrote: jt512 wrote: sungam wrote: jt512 wrote: Me too. That route isn't that hard. Jay If it's the one I'm thinking of, I couldn't get past the 2nd bolt. or was it the third... not sure. hard as nails. Well, I think there are only four bolts, so you did half of it! Jay Yes, I meant to add in "did it only have 4 bolts?". Wait, half of 13... I climb 5.7! Yes! That route is officially only 12b, and actually only 12a. Sorry, dude, 5.6. Jay
I only climb 5.6? If only I knew that before I tried offbalance rock I might still have all of my right nipple...
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suprasoup
Sep 19, 2009, 8:56 PM
Post #67 of 150
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In reply to: It's just so bizarre that you consider it "unfortunate."
Sentimental reasons. It's how I did the problem originally. I guess it's kinda like coming home after a long journey and finding out someone's moved all the furniture around.
Edit: It's also one of the few problems I know by heart. I go back to it between breaks from climbing. So it's kinda a gauge for what I need to work on, in terms of training(mental, physical etc.), if I'm motivated that season to send 5.14's.
(This post was edited by suprasoup on Sep 19, 2009, 9:54 PM)
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suprasoup
Sep 20, 2009, 6:04 AM
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aerili wrote: suprasoup wrote: If you're gonna pigeonhole me do it properly. I'm a "beanie wearing boulderer" THAT happens to climb sport (5.13+) and trad(5.12+) at a high level  . Supra, Supra, you're a beanie-wearing boulderer who is a "who," not a "that"!--you Asian fur'ner boy.....  
I knew if I called myself, "a beanie wearing boulderer" you'd out yourself  . Grammatically incorrect? Most definitely. Consistent with my usage of the word throughout my post? Most definitely. But hey, I'm
just an uneducated Asian fur'ner boy . Remind me again how many languages I knew BEFORE I learned engrish?
(This post was edited by suprasoup on Sep 20, 2009, 6:08 AM)
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qwert
Sep 21, 2009, 10:03 AM
Post #70 of 150
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Know what this thread needs?
More opinions on the general issue of leaving draws on sport climbs, be it project draws or permanent fixed draws by people who dont know the crag in question at all.
so heres some of that:
1. There is a difference between redpoint and pinkpoint! redpoint: you place you draws (or protection)
pinkpoint: you draws are already there, you just clip the rope to them.
if it werent for this distinction, we could just call it a purplepoint, and dont care about it at all. However how much this difference is worth i dont know. If i am climbing with some friends, and someone leads i a route we normally leave the quickdraws in while we are there, if someone of us wants to do it, except its one of the rare routes where you have to use some gear. If the lead is not important (eg. already done the route, or seeing no chance anyways) then its toprope.
But after we are done, the draws are gone.
I do see the issue with hard, overhanging "projects" where cleaning the draws can be a PITA.
But where to draw the line?
Lets say im a total weakling, and i am projecting a 5.7 and cleaning the draws is also hard for me, so i leave them there.
So i say: If you are doing a hard route, and working on it daily, then yes, you might leave your draws. but if you do so, make shure that they are safe. but if you are not there for days or even weeks, dont wonder at what might happen.
Oh, and permanently fixed draws are lame!
so, now flame me.
And for the record: i only climb between 5.10a and 5.12a, so i am not allowed to talk about sport climbing anyways.
have fun!
qwert
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dingus
Sep 21, 2009, 1:23 PM
Post #71 of 150
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'where to draw the line'
Locally, one area at a time, one route at a time, one climber at a time.
You're working a project. You leave your manky draws. J shows up, climbs around your manky draws, puts them back then complains publicly.
A line just got drawn.
Someone else comes alone and takes them. Another line is drawn.
Over and over, consensus in climbing is not about seeking agreement in a large group of people, oh no no no.
We see here on the internet daily, how that would work.
No, in climbing, here in America, consensus and acceptable behavior are determined one climb, one route and one area at a time.
We each establish consensus - but we do it with ACTION, at the crag, not with words and not on the internet.
DMT
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angry
Sep 21, 2009, 1:33 PM
Post #72 of 150
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Why do you carry an 18" long chalkbag?
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k.l.k
Sep 21, 2009, 4:14 PM
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suprasoup wrote: I'm THAT guy: Priest Draw: Carnivore V8. I comfortably boulder V10+. 
You're doing it wrong.
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lena_chita
Moderator
Sep 21, 2009, 4:58 PM
Post #74 of 150
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dingus wrote: 'where to draw the line' Locally, one area at a time, one route at a time, one climber at a time. You're working a project. You leave your manky draws. J shows up, climbs around your manky draws, puts them back then complains publicly. A line just got drawn. Someone else comes alone and takes them. Another line is drawn. Over and over, consensus in climbing is not about seeking agreement in a large group of people, oh no no no. We see here on the internet daily, how that would work. No, in climbing, here in America, consensus and acceptable behavior are determined one climb, one route and one area at a time. We each establish consensus - but we do it with ACTION, at the crag, not with words and not on the internet. DMT
...but the internet allows you to yell loudly about your actions to a large group of people.
I agree with you, nicely said.
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dan4geng
Sep 21, 2009, 5:58 PM
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In reply to: I agree. Those draws should have been cut and tossed. Hell this whole nonsense of project draws hanging for days or quickdraws permanently attached to a route leaves a bitter taste in my mouth. The title should be Don't leave your draws (substandard or otherwise) hanging on an open route if you're not physically there (at the crag or at the climb)
Come on now... You climb 5.13 and you're against fixed or project draws??? Are you serious?? Routes that overhang 30+ feet are a pain in the ass to clean. Pretty much any major sport climbing destination in the US/World (NRG, RRG, VRG, Rifle, Maple Canyon) will have fixed or project draws. It's much less of a comittment to try a route thats at your limit if the draws are already up.
I'm with Jay on this one. If you're going to leave draws up make sure they are SAFE!
BUT there is no reason to be a DICK! Cutting, Stealing, or tossing other peoples' draws is DICK MOVE! Dont do it!
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