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jt512
Feb 26, 2010, 5:56 AM
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rightarmbad wrote: If it was near anaerobic threashold activities, then I would expect to get lactate readings somewhere between 3 and 4 mmols. Don't happen. Though that may also suggest that the muscle group that is working hard is so small that all the resting muscles around it could metabolise the lactate quite quickly and therefore show no circulating rise. You appear to be responding to my post, though it's not clear how what you say here relates to what I wrote. Based on an earlier post of yours I take it that "Don't happen" means that you did not observe much increase in circulating lactate following intense climbing or climbing-like exercise. But circulating lactate isn't the issue. During intense exercise, lactate accumulates in the muscle cell. Fairly recent research shows that the mitochondria in the muscle cell can burn this lactate, at least under aerobic conditions. Thus, through training, if you can increase the muscle cell's ability to burn lactate, you should be able to improve climbing performance. Common sense (which could be wrong) would suggest that the appropriate type of training would be near the anaerobic threshold. I hope I have interpreted your post correctly; your writing was far from clear. Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Feb 26, 2010, 5:57 AM)
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Grizvok
Feb 26, 2010, 6:55 AM
Post #77 of 79
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timmay wrote: In reply to: Hey Tim, would that be a solution outside the body? Cause the last time I talked to an exercise physiologist researcher, he stated that new findings show lactate added to room temperature muscle biopsies (what all this muscle acidosis/fatigue theory has been based on) does not seem to replicate under actual muscle temperatures inside the human body when lactate is injected. You are right in that the solution is outside of the body that we are preparing. The solution also does not contain bicarbonate which would aid in the buffering. However, even in the body, lactic acid would work as an acid and reduce the pH. If the exercise physiologist you were talking to follows what Robergs was saying with lactic acid not contributing to acidosis, I can see why pH might not change. But, looking at more recent literature that refutes that article, scientists are back to saying that lactate does contribute to acidosis. A good article to read would be "Lactic Acid still remains the real cause of acidosis" by Boning (Am J Physiol Regulatory Integrative Comp Physiol 289:902-903, 2005.) along with the 3 other articles that he cites. You were correct in saying that lactate is a fuel and it would typically be consumed in the muscles nearby to where it is produced. While not much lactate is being produced systemically (whether at the ear or the fingertip), there is probably high amounts of lactate being produced intramuscularly. From a study that should be published in the next sixth months or so, we are seeing that lactate levels of 50mmol, pH6.6, and high levels of ATP is causing a muscle ache similar or slightly worse than that of a feeling of being pumped. We are seeing feelings of fatigue at a pH of 7.2-7.0, lactate of less than 10mmol, and lower levels of ATP. Thanks all for the great thread on fatigue and training. So is the actual term anaerobic endurance synonymous to the efficiency of the muscle to use lactic acid as a fuel and therefore reduce pH intramuscularly? Is that technically what a climber is "training?"
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aerili
Feb 26, 2010, 8:39 AM
Post #78 of 79
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jt512 wrote: What might make more sense, though, is to increase the cell's ability to utilize the lactate produced. Common sense suggests that training near the anaerobic threshold could increase the muscle cell's ability to utilize lactate. Yeah, my statement was based on the assumption that that is the goal. (That is, if anaerobic threshold even exists....I don't have a real informed opinion on that currently.)
Grizvok wrote: So is the actual term anaerobic endurance synonymous to the efficiency of the muscle to use lactic acid as a fuel and therefore reduce pH intramuscularly? Is that technically what a climber is "training?" Not sure if low pH is really that important a factor in fatigue, but yes, I think improving the ability to use lactate as a fuel is one goal of what a climber is training. (Capillary density, mitochondrial number, muscle size, etc. are others)
timmay wrote: However, even in the body, lactic acid would work as an acid and reduce the pH. If the exercise physiologist you were talking to follows what Robergs was saying with lactic acid not contributing to acidosis, I can see why pH might not change. But, looking at more recent literature that refutes that article, scientists are back to saying that lactate does contribute to acidosis. The ex phys dude I talked to did not say lactic acid did not contribute to acidosis, what he said was this: when exercising individuals (submaximal thresholds) were injected with an outside source of lactate, no signs of fatigue were brought about--which you would expect if lactate is related to/a cause of fatigue. I don't remember hearing anyone at that conference disputing that lactate had a role in acidosis, it just seems that it's not definitive acidosis has a role in fatigue. (Unless maybe it's Pi......) P.S. I think I read that article you mentioned a while ago.....
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timmay
Feb 26, 2010, 8:39 PM
Post #79 of 79
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In reply to: when exercising individuals (submaximal thresholds) were injected with an outside source of lactate, no signs of fatigue were brought about--which you would expect if lactate is related to/a cause of fatigue. I am not sure the researcher that was involved with the study, but the volume of lactate necessary to evoke fatigue in an exercising muscle would be extremely high. We have been working with the thenar muscle (muscle of the thumb) during rest and have been able to evoke fatigue. However, it did require more than just lactate as there are 3 different things (lactate, decreased pH, increased ATP) that are necessary to activate the fatigue receptors. If just lactate was injected, I would not expect any fatigue to occur either and we have not seen any occur when we just injected lactate. Tim
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