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crjdog
Dec 16, 2002, 12:39 AM
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When you clip in, I heard that the biner in the bolt isn't supposed to have the biner holder thingy that makes it stop moving. Im confused, is the stopper thingy supposed to be on the rope side? why not both?
thanks
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dirko
Dec 16, 2002, 12:47 AM
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Having both sides tight is clearly a "better way." If not, opt for the tide side on the rope end biner. If you are ever pumped and trying to clip an upside-down biner, you will begin hating life quickly.
If your draws are only tight on one end, you can use rubber bands to make both ends tight. You will be glad you did next time you face a heinous clip.
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hanger
Dec 16, 2002, 12:51 AM
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when making a quick-draw, the small or tight end of a sewn sling goes to the straight gate biner. The same applies with the use of an elastic band or petzyl string to hold the biner in place. this is so that you can more easily clip bolts.
You do not want to put it the other way around, as the added rigidity in the sling makes it more possible for it to unclip itself or if it's being used for trad, it can shakes your pro out.
A sewn sling won't come with two tight loops for that reason.
[ This Message was edited by: hanger on 2002-12-15 16:53 ]
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lazide
Dec 16, 2002, 1:01 AM
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Umm DO NOT use the 'non-moving' side to clip the bolt. It makes it FAR more likely that the draw will unclip itself from the bolt.
The reason why you have the stiff part on the rope side is so that when you are clipping the rope the biner doesn't roll (because clipping an upside down biner is a pain in the *ss)
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kalcario
Dec 16, 2002, 1:07 AM
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*when making a quick-draw, the small or tight end of a sewn sling goes to the straight gate biner. The same applies with the use of an elastic band or petzyl string to hold the biner in place. this is so that you can more easily clip bolts.
You do not want to put it the other way around, as the added rigidity in the sling makes it more possible for it to unclip itself or if it's being used for trad, it can shakes your pro out.
A sewn sling won't come with two tight loops for that reason.*
Dude! This is totally wrong... the tight end of the draw runner is for the rope biner, they're tight so the rope biner doesn't flip over inside the sewn loop.
And the hanger end of the draw is loosely sewn to prevent rigidity and accidental unclipping.
Wow...
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funktimonious
Dec 16, 2002, 1:30 AM
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Rei.com sells those little Petzl "string" things, and they say they go on the rope-side (bent-gate). I'll trust them.
--Peace.
[ This Message was edited by: funktimonious on 2002-12-15 17:37 ]
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lazide
Dec 16, 2002, 1:34 AM
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You can look at photos of ANY pre-made draw out there. The biner that is best for clipping (bent-gate or wiregate) is on the 'stiff' side, the straight gate is on the 'loose' side. (you can tell by were the stitching is. The side with the stiching going almost up to the biner, or with an extra bit of stitching right next to the biner is the stiff side.
Or you could ask anyone with half a clue about leading.
Not to be an *ss, but it is really sad the quality and dangerous nature of some of these early posts.
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kalcario
Dec 16, 2002, 1:52 AM
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*The biner that is best for clipping (bent-gate or wiregate) is on the 'stiff' side, the straight gate is on the 'loose' side.*
That's what I said, is'nt it? the tight end of the draw runner is for the rope biner...
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lazide
Dec 16, 2002, 1:54 AM
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Sorry dude, I was talking about the first two responses.
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mauriceb
Dec 16, 2002, 2:54 AM
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lazide & kalcario -
Going to have to agree with hanger. I'm not an expert but when I received my draws from gearexpress.com the tight end was setup with the straight gate biner. The loose end had the OmegaPac JC wiregate. Since the whole pt of the design of the JC biner is less drag, it is on the rope end.
I also found a photo of the Metolious draw. Again the straight gate is on the tight end of the draw.
What I wonder is does it really matter?
I was told by someone over the summer to make sure to use the same biner in the hanger each time b/c theoretically the hanger could cause nicks in the biner which could snag the rope. Any thoughts?
Personally, I like the tight end for clipping the bolt so if a little extra reach is need I've got it.
my $0.02
maurice
[ This Message was edited by: mauriceb on 2002-12-15 18:55 ]
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varstar10
Dec 16, 2002, 3:15 AM
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Dude...the guy that showed me how to climb always had the stiff side of the runner being the same side of the bent gate... This to me makes more sence. The stiff bent gate side will give you more control of the clip and you still have room for play with the straight gate and the loose side of the runner. i have taken many falls with this same set up and im still alive to read this post.......
Jon
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funktimonious
Dec 16, 2002, 3:19 AM
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That makes no sense Jon, you want the rope-side biner to stay the way you put it. The hanger side can face either way.
--Peace.
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varstar10
Dec 16, 2002, 3:28 AM
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hey funk. I was responding to the first post of the thread. Sorry it didnt make sence to you. I guess i cant explain it all that well...
Jon
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kalcario
Dec 16, 2002, 3:53 AM
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*What I wonder is does it really matter?*
I have no explanation for those photos. YOU can do whatever you want I guess, but the bent gate/rope clipping biner goes in the constricted end of the draw runner so that the biner does'nt flip over, which means it's upsidedown when you try to clip it.
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coldclimb
Dec 16, 2002, 4:11 AM
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Well all of my QDs came from the store with a very strong rubber holder on the bent/wiregate biner. Strong enough that it's a pain to even try to turn the biner.
And maurice, my bolt-side biners do have nicks in them, but not enough to damage a rope. I guess if you took a few really bad falls on one biner, it may get mangled enough to matter. The rope shouldn't be going on that side anyways though...
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jt512
Dec 16, 2002, 5:42 AM
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Quote:
I was told by someone over the summer to make sure to use the same biner in the hanger each time b/c theoretically the hanger could cause nicks in the biner which could snag the rope. Any thoughts?
Some of my hanger-end biners are pretty nicked up, so it doesn't appear to be theoretical.
-Jay
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vegastradguy
Dec 17, 2002, 1:18 AM
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I have always believed that the stiff end is the rope end so that you can clip easier (everyone hates it when the biner flips upside down), the gate side should be loose so the draw can have freedom of movement, less rope drag and less likelyhood of the biner unclipping itself.
However, I will NOT claim to be an expert in this subject. I'm just relaying what I have heard and experienced.
I do know that my BD draws came with bent side stiff, straight loose. My friends Omega draws are the same.
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salathiel
Dec 17, 2002, 1:32 AM
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Ive swung both ways on this one and find little difference in having the 'loose' biner on the bolt side or the rope side. The biner is just as likely to flip around and piss you off while trying to attach it to a bolt as to the rope. I find that in really strenuous clips that holding the quickdraw like a handle helps give a little extra reach to fish the biner into the bolt.
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jt512
Dec 17, 2002, 4:54 AM
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Quote:
The biner is just as likely to flip around and piss you off while trying to attach it to a bolt as to the rope.
Most of us hold onto the biner when we clip the draw into the bolt. How can it flip around?
-Jay
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dirko
Dec 17, 2002, 5:33 AM
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It can flip around on your gear loop before you take it off to clip...
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darkside
Dec 17, 2002, 6:58 AM
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When I saw this thread I thought it was a troll, nice work if it is. The question is easily answered by asking any experienced climber I thought so why post it? What scared me was how if beginners could screw up the answer to such a simple question, what would happen if it was a serious safety matter. Mis-information can kill.
Please don't troll when safety is involved.
FWIW the rope end is held firmer to facilitate easier clipping. As JT512 pointed out, when clipping a bolt hanger, most people have the biner in their hand so having the biner held firm is less important.
When it comes to trad placements, as more experience is required overall, I would expect a leader to know that a sling that is looser is less likely to make pro walk or otherwise lift out.
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slcliffdiver
Dec 17, 2002, 2:14 PM
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The only reason I looked at this thread was there were 20 responses to a very simple question with a very standard answer.
Loose end bolt biner. Tight end clipping biner.
Seriously this is something everyone should know before they go out. It does make a difference and if you want to lessen the chance of the gate of the bolt biner catching on the bolt head and unclipping you leave the bolt biner loose. It's why they design draws like this in the first place. I know most people got this right but there just seemed to be a fair amount of noise and I wanted to make sure people got it that it's not a preference thing it's been the standard for years because it does make a difference.
Also the wire gates have more of a chance to catch on the bolt head, I won't put wire gates on the bolt end.
Peace and climb safe
David
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tristero
Dec 17, 2002, 3:12 PM
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Is there any published authoritative narrative on this subject that someone reading this has access to? RC.com isn't a collection of experts, but people often practice what they read here as though it were expert advice. There are experts in our field, and they should be consulted, not the internet, especially before you go off risking not only your life, but those of the people you climb with.
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maiorlive
Dec 17, 2002, 4:10 PM
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[chuckle]
You guys sound a little ... over cautious. Ever hear of someone killing or injuring themselves because their rope 'biner was on the loose end? No? Then lighten up. A couple "wrong" answers here are not going to hurt anyone.
This question is a perfect beginner question. It's exactly what this site should be able to handle and guess what: the majority of the posters got it right.
Sometimes I wonder if some of the more experienced people on this site ever learned anything without a full cert guide looking over their shoulder.
W
edit: grammar stuff
[ This Message was edited by: maiorlive on 2002-12-17 08:11 ]
[ This Message was edited by: maiorlive on 2002-12-17 08:11 ]
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lazide
Dec 17, 2002, 4:21 PM
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Umm, actually I have heard of numerous cases of people decking and/or dying due to broken 'biners... And I have heard numerous stories of people whom have been going to make that second clip... and watched their first draw go 'clip' and slip back and hit their belayer.
You can easily get a biner wedged into a bolt hanger in such a way that it will DEFINITELY break under even a small fall (gate open, hangar stuck on the 'hook' on the biner nose). In fact I have had it happen twice (!!) without knowing - luckily I didn't fall, or I would of had a very, very bad day after I bounced down the 20 something ft of slab and pendulumed into the wall. Having the top biner so it is help tight in the draw makes it MUCH more likely. Just go up to a bolt with a quickdraw and start fiddling around - it should be blindly obvious why with only about 10 minutes of honest attempts.
Really people, why is this so hard to understand?
Edited: cuz speeling isn't just for kids anymore
[ This Message was edited by: lazide on 2002-12-17 08:28 ]
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