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robdotcalm
Jun 11, 2010, 3:39 AM
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A couple of weeks ago, I led a climb in S St Vrain Canyon, which ended in a hallway about 2 ft. wide. There was a perfect belay spot inside. A little projection forming a bench on the R wall and a crack in the L wall. I set up the anchor and tied in with the rope and sat comfortably on the bench. The anchor was 3 ft above me on the L wall. I was belaying off my harness. If a fall came, the force would be downward and being snug with the anchor above I wasn’t going anywhere. I noticed though that the rope would run against an edge and so reset the rope to run through a re-directional clipped to the anchor. All seemed OK. A fall and I would be pulled upwards a little with nothing to bump into.
Well, the fall came and I was slammed into the L wall. I did hold the belay. Resetting myself I realized the rope didn’t run pure vertical but made an angle of about 10° from the vertical. A quick calculation in my head meant that about 10% of the force would be pulling me horizontally. Just looking quickly at how the rope went from my belay device to the re-direct gave me the sense that the pull would be straight upwards. It was mostly upwards but not completely.
All it took for me to stabilize myself was to set one foot against the L wall as was borne out when a couple of more falls occurred and I didn’t move.
Moral: Don’t just look quickly to see where the force will take you but be a little critical and analytic about it.
Disclosure: My climbing partner wasn’t aware of what happened. All he knows is I held the fall. I haven’t yet told him what happened. No need to cause him to lose faith.
Cheers,
Rob.calm
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wonderwoman
Jun 11, 2010, 3:47 AM
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Would belaying off the anchor have been the better option here? Just wondering if that would have made a difference in your set up. That way the force of the fall would have been on the anchor & you would not have been pulled from your stance.
Edit: nbut if you were using an ATC, this would not be an option.
(This post was edited by wonderwoman on Jun 11, 2010, 3:48 AM)
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clc
Jun 11, 2010, 8:15 AM
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If obvious don't belay the 2nd from your harness. Just belay from the anchor and clip yourself to the anchor with a clove hitch.
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blueeyedclimber
Jun 11, 2010, 12:06 PM
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Although I don't agree that you should always belay off the anchor, it is usually what I end up doing. In this instance it might of been better, only for the simple reason that you have a bench. If I have a comfy belay seat, there is no way I want to be pulled from it  .
Other than that, it seems you realized that a good solid stance could correct that problem. But, once again, that takes energy. You have a bench! Sit back....Relax!!!
Josh
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patto
Jun 11, 2010, 12:18 PM
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clc wrote: If obvious don't belay the 2nd from your harness. Just belay from the anchor and clip yourself to the anchor with a clove hitch.
I do sometimes belay 2nds from my harness. And I initially teach all beginners to belay 2nds from their harness too.
Sitting at the edge watching the climber, belaying off your harness is standard basic belaying as far as I'm concerned.
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skiclimb
Jun 11, 2010, 2:26 PM
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I generally belay from the harness. Occasionally from the Anchor.
In most cases I like the extra flexibility to maneuver, take or provide slack usually that stuff is easier from my waist if the anchor is not perfectly positioned. I also like that it can provide an intermediate shock absorber for the anchor.
In some cases such as belaying a second, or where I might get slammed into something above or next to me in the case of a fall I would prefer to belay from the anchor.
Nothing about anchors and belaying is absolute you have to be flexible and able to adjust to the situation of course.
(This post was edited by skiclimb on Jun 11, 2010, 2:33 PM)
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edge
Jun 11, 2010, 2:28 PM
Post #8 of 190
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skiclimb wrote: I generally belay from the harness. Occasionally from the Anchor. In most cases I like the extra flexibility to maneuver, take or provide slack usually that stuff is easier from my waist if the anchor is not perfectly positioned. I also like that it can provide an intermediate shock absorber for the anchor. Nothing about anchors and belaying is absolute you have to be flexible and able to adjust to the situation of course.
Yes. What skiclimb said.
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chadnsc
Jun 11, 2010, 3:52 PM
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Just a thought;
What do you think of extending the master point using the rope and still belaying directly off the anchor?
Wouldn't this provide some extra 'shock absorption' while allowing you to place the belay device where you want it?
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robdotcalm
Jun 11, 2010, 4:07 PM
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If I may summarize the inputs, which I appreciate (and remarkably nobody said I was a noob or a gumby), might be summarized by saying that an advantage of belaying off the anchor using an auto-block device is that the belayer is not in danger of being pulled off his stance. I agree that is a considerable advantage. Since there have been a couple of threads dealing with ATC vs. auto-lock ,e.g., auto-lock for belay? no need to go into it here. My choice for trad climbing is an ATC device, in particular the Trango Pyramid, and belaying off the harness (and if I sport climbed more it would be a Cinch for the sport climbing). Having said that, it’s very important to look at the precise direction of pull if one decides to belay off the harness and not just the general direction of the pull. In 39 years of climbing this is the second time I’ve been pulled off a stance. The first time about 25 years ago was gross carelessness. My partner was a 5.10+ trad leader. We were warming up on a 5.7 slab. I was sitting on a small block a couple of feet in front of the wall. She fell, and I flew into the wall. I held the belay. We were both shaken up by her unexpected fall and my hitting the wall. Since then I’ve been scrupulous about analyzing my stances but as my recent episode indicates precise analysis is needed as well as overall carefulness.
Gratias et valete bene!
RobertusPunctumPacificus
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clc
Jun 11, 2010, 4:17 PM
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I never belay the 2nds from my harness. Why would you? Is there any good reason? I can't think of any good circumstance where it would be better to belay from the harness rather than the anchor. Can anybody gives clear benefits for belaying from the harness.??
I know my ACMG friends always belay from the anchor, which I think is common practice with guides.
Usually I just see beginners belaying from their harness.
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majid_sabet
Jun 11, 2010, 4:26 PM
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did you use pulley for redirect or just a biner ? if the redirect anchor is strong, you could change the angle to 45% + and that will add additional friction to belay at redirect and that is one way of reducing forces. i know in rescue belay calculation, we always think " what if" and we try to move things around to minimize slamming.
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bill413
Jun 11, 2010, 4:41 PM
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clc wrote: I never belay the 2nds from my harness. Why would you? Is there any good reason? I can't think of any good circumstance where it would be better to belay from the harness rather than the anchor. Can anybody gives clear benefits for belaying from the harness.?? I know my ACMG friends always belay from the anchor, which I think is common practice with guides. Usually I just see beginners belaying from their harness.
1) Low anchor
2) Anchor well back from edge
3) Tube style belay device
All are reasons to consider belaying from your harness.
I dislike having to stoop over to belay - you'll see that needing to happen in some anchor belays.
Guides are frequently bringing up much less skilled seconds. They are more likely to need the freedom of not being in the belay than a pair of peers climbing together.
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caughtinside
Jun 11, 2010, 5:04 PM
Post #14 of 190
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clc wrote: I never belay the 2nds from my harness. Why would you? Is there any good reason? I can't think of any good circumstance where it would be better to belay from the harness rather than the anchor. Can anybody gives clear benefits for belaying from the harness.?? I know my ACMG friends always belay from the anchor, which I think is common practice with guides. Usually I just see beginners belaying from their harness.
I belay of the anchor less than 5% of the time. I prefer to not weight the anchor if at all possible. I like the dynamic element belaying off the harness provides. If I think the second is going to do some heavy dogging I'll use a redirect or belay off the anchor.
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jt512
Jun 11, 2010, 5:23 PM
Post #15 of 190
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robdotcalm wrote: A couple of weeks ago, I led a climb in S St Vrain Canyon, which ended in a hallway about 2 ft. wide. There was a perfect belay spot inside. A little projection forming a bench on the R wall and a crack in the L wall. I set up the anchor and tied in with the rope and sat comfortably on the bench. The anchor was 3 ft above me on the L wall. I was belaying off my harness. If a fall came, the force would be downward and being snug with the anchor above I wasn’t going anywhere. I noticed though that the rope would run against an edge and so reset the rope to run through a re-directional clipped to the anchor. All seemed OK. A fall and I would be pulled upwards a little with nothing to bump into. Well, the fall came and I was slammed into the L wall. I did hold the belay. Resetting myself I realized the rope didn’t run pure vertical but made an angle of about 10° from the vertical. A quick calculation in my head meant that about 10% of the force would be pulling me horizontally. Just looking quickly at how the rope went from my belay device to the re-direct gave me the sense that the pull would be straight upwards. It was mostly upwards but not completely. All it took for me to stabilize myself was to set one foot against the L wall as was borne out when a couple of more falls occurred and I didn’t move. Moral: Don’t just look quickly to see where the force will take you but be a little critical and analytic about it. Disclosure: My climbing partner wasn’t aware of what happened. All he knows is I held the fall. I haven’t yet told him what happened. No need to cause him to lose faith.
A picture would be worth a thousand words here—well, 318 words, anyway.
Jay
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jt512
Jun 11, 2010, 5:25 PM
Post #16 of 190
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wonderwoman wrote: Would belaying off the anchor have been the better option here? Just wondering if that would have made a difference in your set up. That way the force of the fall would have been on the anchor & you would not have been pulled from your stance. Edit: nbut if you were using an ATC, this would not be an option.
But he probably know how to use a munter hitch.
Jay
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clc
Jun 11, 2010, 5:41 PM
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bill413 wrote: 1) Low anchor 2) Anchor well back from edge 3) Tube style belay device All are reasons to consider belaying from your harness. I dislike having to stoop over to belay - you'll see that needing to happen in some anchor belays. Guides are frequently bringing up much less skilled seconds. They are more likely to need the freedom of not being in the belay than a pair of peers climbing together.
1]A low anchor is equally difficult with a redirect belay also
2]an anchor far back from the edge has similar difficulties whether you belay from anchor or from harness with redirect. I think its usually a bad idea to belay straight from harness with no redirect.
3] use a munter or spend 20 bucks on a proper belay device
I use the reverso in autoblock and like the freedom to eat , drink, sort gear, take pics.........Generally I can be organizing myself for the next pitch while waiting for the 2nd.
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clc
Jun 11, 2010, 5:46 PM
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caughtinside wrote: I belay of the anchor less than 5% of the time. I prefer to not weight the anchor if at all possible. I like the dynamic element belaying off the harness provides. If I think the second is going to do some heavy dogging I'll use a redirect or belay off the anchor.
I bet most of your anchor are strong enough to belay from. so the dynamic thing really would be an issue. + I keep a tight belay so "shock loading" is avoided.
Certainly shitting belay anchors require different methods.
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caughtinside
Jun 11, 2010, 5:49 PM
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clc wrote: caughtinside wrote: I belay of the anchor less than 5% of the time. I prefer to not weight the anchor if at all possible. I like the dynamic element belaying off the harness provides. If I think the second is going to do some heavy dogging I'll use a redirect or belay off the anchor. I bet most of your anchor are strong enough to belay from. so the dynamic thing really would be an issue. + I keep a tight belay so "shock loading" is avoided. Certainly shitting belay anchors require different methods.
They are, I just don't care for it. I don't have a problem with going off the anchor, but I like to feel the rope.
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acorneau
Jun 11, 2010, 5:51 PM
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bill413 wrote: clc wrote: I never belay the 2nds from my harness. Why would you? Is there any good reason? I can't think of any good circumstance where it would be better to belay from the harness rather than the anchor. Can anybody gives clear benefits for belaying from the harness.?? I know my ACMG friends always belay from the anchor, which I think is common practice with guides. Usually I just see beginners belaying from their harness. 1) Low anchor 2) Anchor well back from edge 3) Tube style belay device All are reasons to consider belaying from your harness.
+1.
Also, poor anchor options but good stance/seat available.
If my anchor is not as beefy as I'd like I'd rather take the majority of the weight on me first and let the anchor take what's left.
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robdotcalm
Jun 11, 2010, 10:12 PM
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clc wrote: Certainly shitting belay anchors require different methods.
Would you please explain this. I don't want to speculate.
r.c
(This post was edited by robdotcalm on Jun 11, 2010, 10:13 PM)
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jt512
Jun 11, 2010, 10:23 PM
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robdotcalm wrote: clc wrote: Certainly shitting belay anchors require different methods. Would you please explain this. I don't want to speculate.
I guess if you eat, drink, and sleep climbing, you're bound to shit the occasional SLCD.
Jay
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clc
Jun 11, 2010, 11:53 PM
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robdotcalm wrote: clc wrote: Certainly shitting belay anchors require different methods. Would you please explain this. I don't want to speculate. r.c
I meant to say shitty.
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patto
Jun 12, 2010, 12:30 AM
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clc wrote: 1]A low anchor is equally difficult with a redirect belay also 2]an anchor far back from the edge has similar difficulties whether you belay from anchor or from harness with redirect. I think its usually a bad idea to belay straight from harness with no redirect. 3] use a munter or spend 20 bucks on a proper belay device
I think you are missing the point. Which was that belaying off your harness WITHOUT A REDIRECT.
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angry
Jun 12, 2010, 1:22 AM
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I think what people here have totally missed is this, you are 78 or some damn huge age, and led a route your partner fell on.
You are SO badass.
Seriously, when I grow up, I want to be you.
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He was not tied in to anything. 
1
