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Adan
Jun 16, 2010, 1:46 AM
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Hey,
I just bought a metolius personal anchor system.
I was wondering if any of you use it not to secure yourself TO an anchor, but to build an anchor on multi pitch routes.
If you have a multipitch sport route with bolts you could just clip the end loop in one bolt with a biner and then connect one of the other loops as tight as possible to the other bolt with a biner.
Then your central point woult be the end loop you made first with the first bolt.
What do you think about that setup?
If you would like to equalize it you could just use the end loop on one biner and then the other end or second last (whatever equalizes best) in the other bolt. Then you central point would be the middle loop.
wouldn't that be a really quick and easy alternative to building these setups with slings or the rope? Besides, there are no knots which would greatly reduce the strenghts of any sling or rope.
find attached pictures of the "alternative" anchor setups (first one for sport (at least one secure bolt) second one equalized for 2 dodgy bolts) i would replace with the PAS.
Please let me know what you think about it!!!
Ciao.
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redlude97
Jun 16, 2010, 3:20 AM
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or you could just clip a pair of QDs to the bolts....
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marc801
Jun 16, 2010, 4:12 AM
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Adan wrote: Hey, I just bought a metolius personal anchor system. I was wondering if any of you use it not to secure yourself TO an anchor, but to build an anchor on multi pitch routes. If you have a multipitch sport route with bolts you could just clip the end loop in one bolt with a biner and then connect one of the other loops as tight as possible to the other bolt with a biner. Then your central point woult be the end loop you made first with the first bolt. What do you think about that setup? If you would like to equalize it you could just use the end loop on one biner and then the other end or second last (whatever equalizes best) in the other bolt. Then you central point would be the middle loop. wouldn't that be a really quick and easy alternative to building these setups with slings or the rope? Besides, there are no knots which would greatly reduce the strenghts of any sling or rope. find attached pictures of the "alternative" anchor setups (first one for sport (at least one secure bolt) second one equalized for 2 dodgy bolts) i would replace with the PAS. Please let me know what you think about it!!! Ciao.
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Adan
Jun 16, 2010, 4:19 AM
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Thanks guys you are really a great help.
I first wanted to post this in the "beginners" section, but with these answers-...pfffff....
why don’t you enlighten me with your great knowledge marc???
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the_climber
Jun 16, 2010, 4:20 AM
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redlude97 wrote: or you could just clip a pair of QDs to the bolts....
Spoken (written) like a sport wanker. 
To the OP: as much as a good idea as it seems, use anchoring with the PAS as a personal anchor. Anchor the "team" (you and your partners) with the rope, a cordelette, webbing/sling with the rope clipped in a suitable fashion... for a proper anchor. Daisies, PAS, Purcell Prussiks and the like... These are "Personal Anchor Points" not team anchor points.
(This post was edited by the_climber on Jun 16, 2010, 4:21 AM)
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jmeizis
Jun 16, 2010, 4:28 AM
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You can do that and it will work fine. You could also tie what's called a quad. Basically a variation on an equallette. If you know all your anchors are bolted you can just unclip it and carry it with you. It's more versatile than a PAS because it's tied with a cordalette which means if you need to tie off a big harness or tie a makeshift harness....for...some...reason...you'll have the material available. With a PAS you've only got a few things you can do with it.
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Adan
Jun 16, 2010, 4:29 AM
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the_climber wrote: redlude97 wrote: or you could just clip a pair of QDs to the bolts.... Spoken (written) like a sport wanker. To the OP: as much as a good idea as it seems, use anchoring with the PAS as a personal anchor. Anchor the "team" (you and your partners) with the rope, a cordelette, webbing/sling with the rope clipped in a suitable fashion... for a proper anchor. Daisies, PAS, Purcell Prussiks and the like... These are "Personal Anchor Points" not team anchor points.
Do you agree that the setups in the pictures are very good? first one for at least one secure bolt second one for 2 "not so secure" points?
I think we have to agree on that frist, before discussing if that could be replaced with the PAS more quickly/more conveniently......
What is the difference between the pas and a piece of webbing or sling???
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the_climber
Jun 16, 2010, 4:41 AM
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Adan wrote: What is the difference between the pas and a piece of webbing or sling???
Well for starters, any anchor must be built for the situation. No 2 anchors are the same, angles differ and gear differs.
We could send messages back and forth for weeks on this, and I honestly could write a novel on the subject, but many of the basics and theory can be covered by reading books such as John Long's "Climbing Anchors" and Craig Luben's Anchor book. I would suggest you pick those up first and add them to your climbing library. They can be references you refer to for ages; both are very well written.
When it comes down to it Personal Anchor Systems (ie. PAS, Daisies, Knotted Slings,.. )... I'll be honest, I would get into it more, but I'm 2 bottles of red wine into the night and I'll likely not be as clear as I would want to be on all the reasons. Suffice it to say keep personal anchors for personal use and "proper" anchors for all other uses.
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marc801
Jun 16, 2010, 4:47 AM
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Adan wrote: Thanks guys you are really a great help. I first wanted to post this in the "beginners" section, but with these answers-...pfffff....
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charlie.elverson
Jun 16, 2010, 4:53 AM
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I've never used a PAS personally, but from looking at them, it seems that your setup would have no redundancy for the master point. What would happen if that loop that you and your partner were clipped to were to break? How much do you trust that single loop?
Like I said, I've never used these and don't know how strong they are, but I would be hesitant to trust a single loop (or a chain of single loops as in your first scenario).
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dan2see
Jun 16, 2010, 5:01 AM
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I don't get it.
For years (at least 2) me and my friends have been using slings and biners. Two-foot slings, 4-foot slings with knots, sport draws, trad draws. We use these things for personal anchor, belay anchor, quick safety, and secure hanging around. Slings and biners work on sport, trad, and ice, and top-rope, for just one climber or for two or three even.
I've seen a few varieties of PAS or similar at the climbing store, and I don't get it. They don't do anything better or easier. In fact I think some of those gadgets are dangerous.
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Adan
Jun 16, 2010, 5:28 AM
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dan2see wrote: I don't get it. For years (at least 2) me and my friends have been using slings and biners. Two-foot slings, 4-foot slings with knots, sport draws, trad draws. We use these things for personal anchor, belay anchor, quick safety, and secure hanging around. Slings and biners work on sport, trad, and ice, and top-rope, for just one climber or for two or three even. I've seen a few varieties of PAS or similar at the climbing store, and I don't get it. They don't do anything better or easier. In fact I think some of those gadgets are dangerous.
Just one point for instance....It might not be necessary to make any knots in it to setup an anchor, so you will have 22kn all the way trough.
In reply to: Well for starters, any anchor must be built for the situation. No 2 anchors are the same, angles differ and gear differs. We could send messages back and forth for weeks on this, and I honestly could write a novel on the subject, but many of the basics and theory can be covered by reading books such as John Long's "Climbing Anchors" and Craig Luben's Anchor book. I would suggest you pick those up first and add them to your climbing library. They can be references you refer to for ages; both are very well written.
I agree, but if we are talking about sport multipitch with bolts...where the two bolts are always roughly at the same location.....
PAS is nothing else than a 22kn sling with the possibility of clipping into each loop to make it shorter or longer instead of making a knot in a sling. What is so bad about that?
Just because it is called Personal....means i am not allowed to use it on an anchor? not very good argumentation.
I agree i should read these books. i am new to this stuff...haven't heard of them yet. and will defennitely have a look at them. Thanks for the advice!
In reply to: What would happen if that loop that you and your partner were clipped to were to break? How much do you trust that single loop?
Each loop is a full strenghts sling. do you trust a sling....or do you backup every sling with another sling?
Thank you guys for all your answers!
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dswink
Jun 16, 2010, 6:19 AM
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Adan: Each loop is a full strenghts sling. do you trust a sling....or do you backup every sling with another sling?
The diagrams in your original posting each have two loops for the lower locker (master point). To acheive that kind of redundancy with a PAS, you could clip your locker through the lowest hanging two loops where they join together. I am not recommending that, just trying to contribute to the exploration.
+1 more for John Longs book on anchors, especially the second edition.
Sorry, but the quoting function is not working for me at the moment.
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vegastradguy
Jun 16, 2010, 6:23 AM
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No- for lots of reasons that i don't feel like typing.
Two bolts have tons of ways to anchor without dicking around trying to equalize a pas into a master point.
Most importantly, the pas is susceptible to failure under factor 2 loads, which IMHO immediately disqualifies it as an anchoring option.
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Adan
Jun 16, 2010, 6:39 AM
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vegastradguy wrote: No- for lots of reasons that i don't feel like typing. Two bolts have tons of ways to anchor without dicking around trying to equalize a pas into a master point. In reply to: I just thought it might be a nice way to build an anchor with sling material without putting any knots in it....I think any knot reduces the stability of the webbing by something like 50 % ..... Most importantly, the pas is susceptible to failure under factor 2 loads, which IMHO immediately disqualifies it as an anchoring option.
ok, fairenough. Why is it likely to fail with a factor 2 fall? if the PAS fails wouldN't a normal webbing or sling fail too, or all the setups which i attached as a picture?
So one 22kn sling loop as masterpoint is not enough? what about a 22kn rated biner with a micro crack in it? how much do you back up your masterpoint usually?
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TarHeelEMT
Jun 16, 2010, 7:09 AM
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With so many superior ways to build an anchor, not the least of which being with the climbing rope which requires no gear, why on earth would you dick around with a misapplication of an already questionable piece of gear?
For personal attachment:
Climbing rope and clove hitch >> PAS
For anchor building:
cordalette, quad, and any of several other setups >> PAS
To echo an earlier question, why would you even bother with this? It's a bad idea.
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dswink
Jun 16, 2010, 7:14 AM
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A PAS, or a sling (especially dynamena) can fail in relatively short falls if there is no energy absorbing material (climbing rope) in the system. Knots in a sling makes it much more likely to fail too.
I cannot think why a PAS would be more likely to fail in an anchor than a sling.
One loop as a master point should be unacceptable. It is too easy to make everything in your anchor redundant. And don't use that cracked biner in the master point. :-)
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dswink
Jun 16, 2010, 7:22 AM
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I admire Adan's approach to exploring options and playing with new approaches. Posting to a forum is a good way to get quality (and not) feedback.
Adan, you are going to find that John Long and Craig Lubben took a similar inquisitive approach to anchor building and then tested their ideas pretty extensively. See how you can innovate after poaching their good thoughts. Well, pay for the books, then poach.
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vegastradguy
Jun 16, 2010, 7:24 AM
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Adan wrote: vegastradguy wrote: No- for lots of reasons that i don't feel like typing. Two bolts have tons of ways to anchor without dicking around trying to equalize a pas into a master point. I just thought it might be a nice way to build an anchor with sling material without putting any knots in it....I think any knot reduces the stability of the webbing by something like 50 % .....
*sigh* considering virtually all anchoring options out there contain a knot or two, including one at the master point, trying to avoid a knot is pointless. and yes, a knot weakens webbing, but not by 50%.
In reply to: In reply to: Most importantly, the pas is susceptible to failure under factor 2 loads, which IMHO immediately disqualifies it as an anchoring option. ok, fairenough. Why is it likely to fail with a factor 2 fall? if the PAS fails wouldN't a normal webbing or sling fail too, or all the setups which i attached as a picture? So one 22kn sling loop as masterpoint is not enough? what about a 22kn rated biner with a micro crack in it? how much do you back up your masterpoint usually?
its more because the PAS is girth hitched to you than because its part of the anchor. im too lazy to diagram it out for you, but if you fall onto your PAS @ anchor, it can fail, and if it is your anchor, you're really hosed.
i dont use multiple slings @ bolted anchors. i clove hitch to each bolt and call it an anchor. or build an equalized anchor with the rope. or use two draws. on occasion, i even use a double length sling with a master point if i'm going for overkill.
finally, from a practical point of view, it doesnt make any sense- the PAS isnt long enough to do what you're talking about. you'd be humping the first bolt trying to get enough length to equalize the second one.
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patto
Jun 16, 2010, 7:30 AM
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dswink wrote: One loop as a master point should be unacceptable. It is too easy to make everything in your anchor redundant. And don't use that cracked biner in the master point. :-)
That is a daft statement. One loop of strong material is perfectly fine for a master point. For a two bolt anchor I only have 1 loop of rope as my master point. How many loops of rope do you use to attach yourself?
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dswink
Jun 16, 2010, 7:38 AM
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Patto,
I have only built an anchor using the rope a couple of times so I accept your exception. I have used the rope to extend the anchor off of the master point often, and I only use a single length of the rope for that purpose.
I assume you do use redundant loops when building an anchor from a cordolette, equalette, or slings?
BTW, my first rc.com slapdown is "daft"? lol
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DexterRutecki
Jun 16, 2010, 8:33 AM
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patto wrote: dswink wrote: One loop as a master point should be unacceptable. It is too easy to make everything in your anchor redundant. And don't use that cracked biner in the master point. :-) That is a daft statement. One loop of strong material is perfectly fine for a master point. For a two bolt anchor I only have 1 loop of rope as my master point. How many loops of rope do you use to attach yourself?
What is so hard about basic anchoring concepts that people need to ignore them, or try and reinvent them (i.e. using a pas to build an anchor with 2 bolts for pro)? Why in god's name would you want only 1 loop of rope for the master point? sRene...the R is for redundant, which one loop isn't.
Blah blah, you trust 1 rope, 1 belay loop, etc. I don't care, it's soo freaking easy to construct an anchor with more than one loop at the master point, I feel like I'd have to try not to.
To answer the OP's question, why NOT use a pas to build an anchor? Well, why would you? The way to stay safe is to rely on tried and true practices that are use all over the place. If you're going to invent some alternative, you better know EXACTLY what you are doing and have damned good reason to believe what you are doing is an improvement. I.E., someone like John Long coming up with the equalette as an alternative to the standard cordellete setup. KISS - Keep it simple stupid.
So, 2 bolts? Double length sling, 2 limiter knots (overhand), clip master point in sliding X configuration, and clip the ends to the bolts. Solid placements (bolts), redundant, equalized, no extension (at least, limited extension.) Boom. Done, very simple. Don't fix what isn't broken. (Yes, there are other ways to do this, this is just a simple, standard one.)
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patto
Jun 16, 2010, 9:45 AM
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dswink wrote: I assume you do use redundant loops when building an anchor from a cordolette, equalette, or slings? BTW, my first rc.com slapdown is "daft"? lol  Don't know where 'daft' came from but I like it and might use it again. But to answer your question: Most of the time I build anchors with my rope. I don't use redundant loops when building anchors from slings. I don't uses equalettes. If I use cordalettes I used them according to the intrustics on the packet.
DexterRutecki wrote: What is so hard about basic anchoring concepts that people need to ignore them, or try and reinvent them (i.e. using a pas to build an anchor with 2 bolts for pro)? Why in god's name would you want only 1 loop of rope for the master point? sRene...the R is for redundant, which one loop isn't.
Redundant in terms of protection. Because protection is the biggest unknown. For strong stuff you don't need redundancy if you trust your gear.
Editted to remove my sillyness. 
(This post was edited by patto on Jun 16, 2010, 10:48 AM)
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walkonyourhands
Jun 16, 2010, 9:52 AM
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Recognizing the pics the OP used and the German filenames, I suppose that he/she's from a German-speaking country. I've tried to discuss the German/Austrian/Swiss approaches on anchors here a few times (although admittedly with poor effort) and have more or less given up on the topic. I just wanted to mention here that there are indeed different concepts in use (widespread use, that is) in other parts of the world.
All those telling the OP to read Long and Luebben and whatnot, have you ever taken a look at Schubert's or Semmel's work? The latter, more actual text on anchors is easily available on the net and should be comprehensive just from the many pictures. Just google "standplatz skript 2009 dav". Heck, I'll even give you a link: http://www.alpenverein.de/...913&mode=details
Please understand that this is scientific work, only from a different perspective and with a different cultural background. That doesn't make it any less valid.
(One could argue how much Europe is influenced by the greater use of bolts in a certain period of time and that trad climbing is certainly stronger in the US or UK but that's another can of worms)
To the OP's idea: I personally think that there's nothing wrong or dangerous with it - connecting two bolts with full-strength material in whatever fashion is just fine for me. But there are more practical solutions so I'll probably never be caught building an achor with (or even carrying) a PAS.
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DexterRutecki
Jun 16, 2010, 9:53 AM
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Patto wrote: DexterRutecki wrote: So, 2 bolts? Double length sling, 2 limiter knots (overhand), clip master point in sliding X configuration, and clip the ends to the bolts. Solid placements (bolts), redundant, equalized, no extension (at least, limited extension.) Boom. Done, very simple. Um... You are relying on a single loop there clever clogs. 
False. I am relying on 2 separate strands. If either was to be cut (not expected to happen, but nonetheless), the attached biner or biners would still be connected to the anchor. In that setup, the 2 strands of material go to the limiter knots, and don't form a loop with each other. This is in contrast to one "loop" of a PAS, which would cease to be connected to anything if it were cut.
This is not rocket surgery.
(This post was edited by DexterRutecki on Jun 16, 2010, 9:54 AM)
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