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lena_chita
Moderator
Aug 6, 2010, 3:27 PM
Post #26 of 41
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jt512 wrote: stickclip wrote: A scenario that can get the climber in to trouble is when their belayer flies up to the first bolt, they are using a gri, and their hand isn't on the brake side of the rope. The cam can get held down therefore increasing the chance the climber will take a ground fall. You might be saying "who lets go of the brake side of the rope..." Actually, in this scenario I would be saying "Who cares if the belayer let's go of the rope?" because if the cam gets held open (by the bolt), then it doesn't matter whether the belayer is holding onto the rope or not; either way, he won't be able to stop the rope from running through the grigri. Jay
I disagree based on personal experience. Happened to me once, and I was able to hold on to the rope and keep the climber from falling.
Maybe it was b/c the cam didn't open all the way... it got pressed down about halfway or 2/3rds of the way. (E.i. I am pretty sure it was enough for the rope to slide through if my hand weren't on the brake, but still providing a lot more friction than a fully-opened cam.
If you think of the sequence of the events: first the climber falls, the rope gets tight and the gri-gri locks. Only THEN is the belayer yanked off the ground and flies up.
How much force would be necessary to press down a gri-gri cam when it is fully engaged and under tension in this scenario?
I would be curious to see your calculations!
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majid_sabet
Aug 6, 2010, 4:51 PM
Post #27 of 41
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Top biner on lead or TR biner reduces forces by 40% so you could easily belay leader by 40% heavier . If you use pulley ( seen some people use on TR), you will fly to sky.
The backup belay anchor gives you an opportunity to set escape belay faster. Had one case when a leader leg was stuck in a crack for hours cause belayer was 4-5 feet away from the tree behind him and he could not reach it to set anchor under load to escape.
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spikeddem
Aug 6, 2010, 4:58 PM
Post #28 of 41
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majid_sabet wrote: The backup belay anchor gives you an opportunity to set escape belay faster. Had one case when a leader leg was stuck in a crack for hours cause belayer was 4-5 feet away from the tree behind him and he could not reach it to set anchor under load to escape.
I don't buy it, Majid. If the leader was truly stuck in a crack, the belayer would not be holding the climber's weight now, would they? Or, at least, they could take the weight off for long enough to get to the tree (4-5 feet away).
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swoopee
Aug 6, 2010, 6:55 PM
Post #29 of 41
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spikeddem wrote: majid_sabet wrote: The backup belay anchor gives you an opportunity to set escape belay faster. Had one case when a leader leg was stuck in a crack for hours cause belayer was 4-5 feet away from the tree behind him and he could not reach it to set anchor under load to escape. I don't buy it, Majid. If the leader was truly stuck in a crack, the belayer would not be holding the climber's weight now, would they? Or, at least, they could take the weight off for long enough to get to the tree (4-5 feet away).
Logic? On RockClimbing.com? 
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blueeyedclimber
Aug 7, 2010, 7:27 PM
Post #31 of 41
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climbingaggie03 wrote: Where did this idea of a "soft catch" come from? especially for sport climbing? I've never heard of anyone talking about it outside of RC.com. Most of the places I know of we worry about trying to keep the climber off the deck. I dont think an extra foot or two of slack is going to make much of a difference to the climber on a sport route, and if you're worried about being gentle on your sport climbing equipment, maybe it's time to replace it.
Most of the people who talk about it, don't know how to do it or when to do it. It is strictly the domain of steep routes to prevent the climber from smacking hard into the wall. Keeping the climber off the deck ALWAYS trumps a soft catch. If you don't climb steep routes, then you do not need to worry about giving/getting a soft catch.
Josh
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climbingaggie03
Aug 7, 2010, 10:29 PM
Post #32 of 41
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blueeyedclimber wrote: climbingaggie03 wrote: Where did this idea of a "soft catch" come from? especially for sport climbing? I've never heard of anyone talking about it outside of RC.com. Most of the places I know of we worry about trying to keep the climber off the deck. I dont think an extra foot or two of slack is going to make much of a difference to the climber on a sport route, and if you're worried about being gentle on your sport climbing equipment, maybe it's time to replace it. Most of the people who talk about it, don't know how to do it or when to do it. It is strictly the domain of steep routes to prevent the climber from smacking hard into the wall. Keeping the climber off the deck ALWAYS trumps a soft catch. If you don't climb steep routes, then you do not need to worry about giving/getting a soft catch. Josh
I guess that makes sense, I spent my formative climbing years on steep stuff, then spent a few years on slabby to vertical stuff, I've been getting back into steep stuff this year, so I guess I'll play with the soft catch, but it doesn't seem that important to me, might save a few twisted ankles here and there, but in my experience as long as you bend your knees and absorb it, i've always come out ok.
I did get a soft catch (inadvertently) once, it was a 30 footer when I was running 2 pitches together, I fell right before the top of the second pitch and between all the rope in the system, and the belayer getting pulled a bit, it was alot softer than a 5 foot fall in the gym or on a sport route, but I remember feeling like it was going to catch, and then falling another 5 feet or so (none of the pieces blew, so I'm pretty sure that was the belayer getting pulled)
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majid_sabet
Aug 8, 2010, 2:08 AM
Post #33 of 41
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spikeddem wrote: majid_sabet wrote: The backup belay anchor gives you an opportunity to set escape belay faster. Had one case when a leader leg was stuck in a crack for hours cause belayer was 4-5 feet away from the tree behind him and he could not reach it to set anchor under load to escape. I don't buy it, Majid. If the leader was truly stuck in a crack, the belayer would not be holding the climber's weight now, would they? Or, at least, they could take the weight off for long enough to get to the tree (4-5 feet away).
if you got three team of climbers spending two+ hours trying to free a leader with stuck foot and then they decide to call the rescue team, trust me, you need to buy it.
here, read some of these till i find you the real report somewhere.
http://www.supertopo.com/...msg=769872#msg769872
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jakedatc
Aug 8, 2010, 3:39 AM
Post #34 of 41
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Registered: Mar 12, 2003
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climbingaggie03 wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: climbingaggie03 wrote: Where did this idea of a "soft catch" come from? especially for sport climbing? I've never heard of anyone talking about it outside of RC.com. Most of the places I know of we worry about trying to keep the climber off the deck. I dont think an extra foot or two of slack is going to make much of a difference to the climber on a sport route, and if you're worried about being gentle on your sport climbing equipment, maybe it's time to replace it. Most of the people who talk about it, don't know how to do it or when to do it. It is strictly the domain of steep routes to prevent the climber from smacking hard into the wall. Keeping the climber off the deck ALWAYS trumps a soft catch. If you don't climb steep routes, then you do not need to worry about giving/getting a soft catch. Josh I guess that makes sense, I spent my formative climbing years on steep stuff, then spent a few years on slabby to vertical stuff, I've been getting back into steep stuff this year, so I guess I'll play with the soft catch, but it doesn't seem that important to me, might save a few twisted ankles here and there, but in my experience as long as you bend your knees and absorb it, i've always come out ok. I did get a soft catch (inadvertently) once, it was a 30 footer when I was running 2 pitches together, I fell right before the top of the second pitch and between all the rope in the system, and the belayer getting pulled a bit, it was alot softer than a 5 foot fall in the gym or on a sport route, but I remember feeling like it was going to catch, and then falling another 5 feet or so (none of the pieces blew, so I'm pretty sure that was the belayer getting pulled)
If you are working a route and lobbing off a whole bunch then avoiding those twisted ankles, sore feet and general body soreness is a good idea. as you said in your long fall it felt really soft. All a "soft catch" on purpose does is put more rope in the system.
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bill413
Aug 8, 2010, 10:45 PM
Post #35 of 41
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jakedatc wrote: climbingaggie03 wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: climbingaggie03 wrote: Where did this idea of a "soft catch" come from? especially for sport climbing? I've never heard of anyone talking about it outside of RC.com. Most of the places I know of we worry about trying to keep the climber off the deck. I dont think an extra foot or two of slack is going to make much of a difference to the climber on a sport route, and if you're worried about being gentle on your sport climbing equipment, maybe it's time to replace it. Most of the people who talk about it, don't know how to do it or when to do it. It is strictly the domain of steep routes to prevent the climber from smacking hard into the wall. Keeping the climber off the deck ALWAYS trumps a soft catch. If you don't climb steep routes, then you do not need to worry about giving/getting a soft catch. Josh I guess that makes sense, I spent my formative climbing years on steep stuff, then spent a few years on slabby to vertical stuff, I've been getting back into steep stuff this year, so I guess I'll play with the soft catch, but it doesn't seem that important to me, might save a few twisted ankles here and there, but in my experience as long as you bend your knees and absorb it, i've always come out ok. I did get a soft catch (inadvertently) once, it was a 30 footer when I was running 2 pitches together, I fell right before the top of the second pitch and between all the rope in the system, and the belayer getting pulled a bit, it was alot softer than a 5 foot fall in the gym or on a sport route, but I remember feeling like it was going to catch, and then falling another 5 feet or so (none of the pieces blew, so I'm pretty sure that was the belayer getting pulled) If you are working a route and lobbing off a whole bunch then avoiding those twisted ankles, sore feet and general body soreness is a good idea. as you said in your long fall it felt really soft. All a "soft catch" on purpose does is put more rope in the system.
Please note the bolded. It's the most important. But, second to that, a soft catch is a good thing. And a soft catch is not just leaving slack in the system.
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KeitaroHoshi
Aug 11, 2010, 4:22 AM
Post #36 of 41
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heres how to get stuck in a crack
Boogi till you poop 5.11 / vimeo.com
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j_ung
Aug 11, 2010, 12:40 PM
Post #37 of 41
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blueeyedclimber wrote: climbingaggie03 wrote: Where did this idea of a "soft catch" come from? especially for sport climbing? I've never heard of anyone talking about it outside of RC.com. Most of the places I know of we worry about trying to keep the climber off the deck. I dont think an extra foot or two of slack is going to make much of a difference to the climber on a sport route, and if you're worried about being gentle on your sport climbing equipment, maybe it's time to replace it. Most of the people who talk about it, don't know how to do it or when to do it. It is strictly the domain of steep routes to prevent the climber from smacking hard into the wall. Keeping the climber off the deck ALWAYS trumps a soft catch. If you don't climb steep routes, then you do not need to worry about giving/getting a soft catch. Josh
Define "steep."
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scotty1974
Aug 11, 2010, 3:50 PM
Post #38 of 41
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She catch you no doubt, but like everyone said she's going to fly. I climb with a guy that's maybe only 20+ lbs. heavier and I go up at least 3 feet and that's a soft fall in the gym.
But I've also seen big lead falls caught by really really small girls.
I just wouldn't do it if there is ground fall potential or if she's afaid of catching some flight time.
+1 for exceptions...analyze the situation first.
(This post was edited by scotty1974 on Aug 11, 2010, 3:54 PM)
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majid_sabet
Aug 12, 2010, 3:11 PM
Post #40 of 41
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DangerGir1 wrote: majid_sabet wrote: Top biner on lead or TR biner reduces forces by 40% so you could easily belay leader by 40% heavier . If you use pulley ( seen some people use on TR), you will fly to sky.  Who in there right mind uses a pulley? Its not like hauling a pig. There is supposed to be friction at the anchor in a TR setup, it makes it easier to ketch a fall.
That's what I asked myself when I ran in to a couple of n00b TRs who just got a outdoor lesson on how to climb so when I asked who and what,they told me that their instructor said to use pulley cause it would be easier on rope and makes it to last longer. I took both of the n00bs back to top and changed their system and told them the reasons on why the belayer was shooting to sky every time he fell . they fixed things up and we were all happy.
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Aug 12, 2010, 3:13 PM)
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blueeyedclimber
Aug 13, 2010, 8:08 PM
Post #41 of 41
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j_ung wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: climbingaggie03 wrote: Where did this idea of a "soft catch" come from? especially for sport climbing? I've never heard of anyone talking about it outside of RC.com. Most of the places I know of we worry about trying to keep the climber off the deck. I dont think an extra foot or two of slack is going to make much of a difference to the climber on a sport route, and if you're worried about being gentle on your sport climbing equipment, maybe it's time to replace it. Most of the people who talk about it, don't know how to do it or when to do it. It is strictly the domain of steep routes to prevent the climber from smacking hard into the wall. Keeping the climber off the deck ALWAYS trumps a soft catch. If you don't climb steep routes, then you do not need to worry about giving/getting a soft catch. Josh Define "steep."
90.000000000000000000000001 degrees
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