|
ceebo
Sep 24, 2010, 11:50 PM
Post #1 of 69
(12792 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 9, 2009
Posts: 862
|
Just for example doing deadhangs wieghted. Can you ever reach a point where you are just too strong in relation to whats actually needed to climb a route with hands/feet?. Or does any amount of finger strength bonus higher than the required amount to do X climb convert into a form of endurence?.
I think what im trying to ask is.. am i better off spending my home time training up endurence instead of training and increasing maximum finger strength.
|
|
|
|
|
gblauer
Moderator
Sep 25, 2010, 12:14 AM
Post #2 of 69
(12775 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 4, 2002
Posts: 2824
|
you are better off learning how to spell
|
|
|
|
|
Bats
Sep 25, 2010, 1:09 AM
Post #3 of 69
(12738 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 27, 2007
Posts: 486
|
English may not be his first language...misspelled or mizpailed, its funny.
|
|
|
|
|
spikeddem
Sep 25, 2010, 3:00 AM
Post #4 of 69
(12696 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2007
Posts: 6319
|
ceebo wrote: Just for example doing deadhangs wieghted. Can you ever reach a point where you are just too strong in relation to whats actually needed to climb a route with hands/feet?. Or does any amount of finger strength bonus higher than the required amount to do X climb convert into a form of endurence?. I think what im trying to ask is.. am i better off spending my home time training up endurence instead of training and increasing maximum finger strength.
There are seriously just so many things wrong about this question. For example, you're not even asking the right question. Nor is your reasoning even basic idea of training endurance at home even logical. Get the Self Coached Climber and read.
|
|
|
|
|
ceebo
Sep 25, 2010, 1:46 PM
Post #5 of 69
(12641 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 9, 2009
Posts: 862
|
I read the self coached climber, it told me to go climb. I cant do that every day.
I climb or train 6 days a week, i am only trying to figure out what i am better off training at home. Thnx for your constructive words though. And how can you know what my means to train aerobic endurence at home are?, i guess my bad spelling is an encripted code.
|
|
|
|
|
granite_grrl
Sep 25, 2010, 3:29 PM
Post #6 of 69
(12620 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 25, 2002
Posts: 15084
|
ceebo wrote: I read the self coached climber, it told me to go climb. I cant do that every day.
If this is all you got from the Self Coached climber then you might want to read it again.
You should not be training your grip 6 days a week, in my experience it's rarely grip strength that is actually holding a person back.
You need to go through a self analysis and figure out what your weaknesses are and work on those, it's rarely just one thing.
|
|
|
|
|
MS1
Sep 25, 2010, 4:20 PM
Post #7 of 69
(12608 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 24, 2009
Posts: 560
|
ceebo wrote: Just for example doing deadhangs wieghted. Can you ever reach a point where you are just too strong in relation to whats actually needed to climb a route with hands/feet?. Or does any amount of finger strength bonus higher than the required amount to do X climb convert into a form of endurence?. I think what im trying to ask is.. am i better off spending my home time training up endurence instead of training and increasing maximum finger strength.
It's not a question of being "too strong" to climb something (which is kind of absurd). It's a question of maximizing the effectiveness of your training time. Strength is just a small part of the equation; you need to spend a lot of time working on movement skills, power, and endurance as well.
So if you spend so much time training finger strength that you neglect these other things, you will be holding yourself back as a climber. Also, training strength all the time without much rest is a great way to end up injured.
Finally, even if training finger strength is your goal, weighted deadhangs may not be the best way to do that. I'd focus first on hanging from increasingly marginal holds. I feel like that will transfer more readily to actual climbing than just increasing weight while hanging on good holds.
|
|
|
|
|
ceebo
Sep 25, 2010, 8:21 PM
Post #8 of 69
(12559 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 9, 2009
Posts: 862
|
but still nobody answerd my question, if you can deadhang with 30-40 extra pounds will that gain'd finger strength be wasted when its time to actually start climbing rock with feet on wall? or will your fingers, being use to much greater loads not tire as fast?.
And for the record, 4 of the days i climb doing varius endurence training. Other 2 are lead climbing. Only do deadhangs when im unable to make it to the gym.
|
|
|
|
|
spikeddem
Sep 25, 2010, 8:30 PM
Post #9 of 69
(12552 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2007
Posts: 6319
|
ceebo wrote: but still nobody answerd my question, if you can deadhang with 30-40 extra pounds will that gain'd finger strength be wasted when its time to actually start climbing rock with feet on wall? or will your fingers, being use to much greater loads not tire as fast?. And for the record, 4 of the days i climb doing varius endurence training. Other 2 are lead climbing. Only do deadhangs when im unable to make it to the gym.
Good lord.
You can either train so your fingers can hold more (deadhangs) or you can train so that your fingers don't need to hold more (movement training). One of these puts much more stress on your body, and takes much more time to see results. You can't be serious when you say you've read the self coached climber. If you are, go back and re-read it.
To answer your question (you're going to be upset when this actually doesn't), climbing six days a week AND doing deadhang workouts will likely be counterproductive.
|
|
|
|
|
MS1
Sep 25, 2010, 8:43 PM
Post #10 of 69
(12543 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 24, 2009
Posts: 560
|
ceebo wrote: but still nobody answerd my question, if you can deadhang with 30-40 extra pounds will that gain'd finger strength be wasted when its time to actually start climbing rock with feet on wall? or will your fingers, being use to much greater loads not tire as fast?. And for the record, 4 of the days i climb doing varius endurence training. Other 2 are lead climbing. Only do deadhangs when im unable to make it to the gym.
You are missing the point. Doing one kind of training has an opportunity cost, because you aren't doing something else with that time. Maybe weighted deadhangs would help a bit, but other forms of training would probably help more. Given your description of your current regimen, the problem might actually be that you are overtraining; your body needs to rest in order to actually get stronger. So maybe you need more rest days rather than a way to do more training.
|
|
|
|
|
bothomsen
Sep 25, 2010, 10:02 PM
Post #11 of 69
(12507 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 3, 2008
Posts: 57
|
i will tell you to try your out what you described. And then decide for your self if it worked!! maybe it will work fine for ever, maybe it will work for a year, or maybe just for 2 month or not at all.
Go find out!
|
|
|
|
|
quiteatingmysteak
Sep 25, 2010, 10:11 PM
Post #12 of 69
(12499 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 15, 2004
Posts: 804
|
Can you be too strong?
Last I checked there is only one Dave Mayville.
|
|
|
|
|
ceebo
Sep 25, 2010, 10:50 PM
Post #13 of 69
(12486 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 9, 2009
Posts: 862
|
spikeddem wrote: Good lord. You can either train so your fingers can hold more (deadhangs) or you can train so that your fingers don't need to hold more (movement training). One of these puts much more stress on your body, and takes much more time to see results. You can't be serious when you say you've read the self coached climber. If you are, go back and re-read it. To answer your question (you're going to be upset when this actually doesn't), climbing six days a week AND doing deadhang workouts will likely be counterproductive.
I didnt realise i was forced to do movement OR finger strength, and cant aquire both. You missread, i said IF i miss a climbing session i will do some deadhangs at home.
Really thought i was asking a simple question  .
|
|
|
|
|
altelis
Sep 25, 2010, 11:04 PM
Post #14 of 69
(12476 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 10, 2004
Posts: 2168
|
YOU are missing the point.
Can you be TOO strong? No.
Can you train one thing too much in RELATION to other things? Yes. You will leave deficits. There are many reasons why this is a problem.
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Sep 26, 2010, 12:25 AM
Post #15 of 69
(12451 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
quiteatingmysteak wrote: Can you be too strong? Last I checked there is only one Dave Mayville.
Just wanted you to know that somebody out there got the joke.
Jay
|
|
|
|
|
granite_grrl
Sep 26, 2010, 1:24 AM
Post #16 of 69
(12420 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 25, 2002
Posts: 15084
|
ceebo wrote: spikeddem wrote: Good lord. You can either train so your fingers can hold more (deadhangs) or you can train so that your fingers don't need to hold more (movement training). One of these puts much more stress on your body, and takes much more time to see results. You can't be serious when you say you've read the self coached climber. If you are, go back and re-read it. To answer your question (you're going to be upset when this actually doesn't), climbing six days a week AND doing deadhang workouts will likely be counterproductive. I didnt realise i was forced to do movement OR finger strength, and cant aquire both. You missread, i said IF i miss a climbing session i will do some deadhangs at home. Really thought i was asking a simple question .
In terms of reading the Self Coached Climber, please go back and read about lactic acid thresh-holds in terms of aerobic and anaerobic training.
|
|
|
|
|
leyton
Sep 26, 2010, 11:25 AM
Post #17 of 69
(12344 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 25, 2010
Posts: 13
|
ceebo wrote: Just for example doing deadhangs wieghted. Can you ever reach a point where you are just too strong in relation to whats actually needed to climb a route with hands/feet?. Or does any amount of finger strength bonus higher than the required amount to do X climb convert into a form of endurence?. I think what im trying to ask is.. am i better off spending my home time training up endurence instead of training and increasing maximum finger strength.
If I understood your question, then I would suggest no. Finger grip for resting does not substitute endurance. They all work togeather in different circumstances.
For example, what good is grip strenth when you want to rest on a nice jug, if you are weak in other areas you will tire.
Where you lack in strenth in some areas, well you can substitute that for strenth in others but to be perfectly honest your best tool is your brain.
Most of the time personaly I find where I have failed is because I have not planned my holds very well, yet I am fairly strong and have endurance.
Naturaly out of just climbing, you will discover weekness in certain areas, and you will naturaly use other strenths in your body to compensate. We are all built differently. If your weakness is you are short like me LOL, you have to compensate with climbing IQ and madness dyno's and a good sence of humour.
(This post was edited by leyton on Sep 26, 2010, 11:30 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
mheyman
Sep 26, 2010, 4:05 PM
Post #18 of 69
(12281 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 25, 2002
Posts: 607
|
Re: [ceebo] Can you be too strong?
To answer the OP's question: Absolutely. You will know it when you begin to pull walls and mountains down on yourself. If you are too strong, stick to small stuff so you won't be injured by falling debris!
|
|
|
|
|
ceebo
Sep 26, 2010, 6:25 PM
Post #19 of 69
(12245 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 9, 2009
Posts: 862
|
leyton wrote: ceebo wrote: Just for example doing deadhangs wieghted. Can you ever reach a point where you are just too strong in relation to whats actually needed to climb a route with hands/feet?. Or does any amount of finger strength bonus higher than the required amount to do X climb convert into a form of endurence?. I think what im trying to ask is.. am i better off spending my home time training up endurence instead of training and increasing maximum finger strength. If I understood your question, then I would suggest no. Finger grip for resting does not substitute endurance. They all work togeather in different circumstances. For example, what good is grip strenth when you want to rest on a nice jug, if you are weak in other areas you will tire. Where you lack in strenth in some areas, well you can substitute that for strenth in others but to be perfectly honest your best tool is your brain. Most of the time personaly I find where I have failed is because I have not planned my holds very well, yet I am fairly strong and have endurance. Naturaly out of just climbing, you will discover weekness in certain areas, and you will naturaly use other strenths in your body to compensate. We are all built differently. If your weakness is you are short like me LOL, you have to compensate with climbing IQ and madness dyno's and a good sence of humour.
I think i have asked this question in the wrong way, wich is my fault. Can you bare with me and try to answer it for me? please. I will try to re-phrase it.
I remember reading in scc (i think) that the bigger the 4arms the more force you can apply, and the more force you can apply can effect your endurence, due to not needing to grip at your maximum. From that i seen alot of blogs about doing wieghts like curls etc to increase 4arm size, while also doing aerobic endurence or what not to increase density, blood flow oxygen or W/E. As far as i could gather this kind of training is aimd toward the likes of tuffa climbing and other similar hold types that are reall 4arm heavy.
So, wieghted deadhangs i figured was the kinde ''crimp'' version of the above. I read some blogs and seen many comments on how wieghted deadhangs brings great rewards.
That is where my question comes in, because i am scepticle to those claims. say a person is building up his deadhang performence like 10-20-30-40-50 pounds and then stops doing deadhangs. If he then only climbs, wouldnt his fingers re-ajust to the new lesser wieght of good movement climbing? and would he not loze the extra strength he gaind from the previus deadhang training unless he continued to do deadhangs?.
To me that seem'd logical that unless he keeps exposing his fingers to extreem deadhang wieght his fingers would re ajust to his climbing capabilty, meaning yes, he was ''too strong''. But then... alot of pro climbers do say wieghted deadhangs are great. So i then wonderd if the reason was just like the whole 4arm thing.. that if your fingers are much stronger would they not need to use as much effort and their for not tire so easily.
This really has nothing to do with movment and all the rest of it like the other posters are flaming about  , you seem to get what i mean so i hope you can help. I do value my training time and im wanting to set a good program that will not injure me but allow me to climb 6 days a week (since i LIKE to climb aswell).
(This post was edited by ceebo on Sep 26, 2010, 6:29 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
spikeddem
Sep 26, 2010, 6:59 PM
Post #20 of 69
(12225 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2007
Posts: 6319
|
FLAWLESS SEND!
|
|
|
|
|
hafilax
Sep 26, 2010, 7:20 PM
Post #21 of 69
(12215 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 12, 2007
Posts: 3025
|
I'm no expert but the following is my understanding based on SCC and Training for Climbing as well as a few other sources. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
It seems to me that you are mostly talking about increased muscle mass or hypertrophy but there is another aspect of strength which is recruitment. You need to train the new muscle mass to work together in order to maximize your strength for a given volume of muscle. This is what plyometric exercises like campusing and one armed traversing are good for. Dead hangs may increase the volume of muscle but that doesn't mean that you will be stronger for climbing.
I've read a few sources now that state that although lactic acid coincides muscle fatigue it is no longer believed to be the cause. I'm no longer really sure what the state of endurance training is. I guess that only the understanding of the underlying mechanism has changed and not the methods of training. Is it still a matter of improving the anaerobic threshold either by increasing the threshold or by improving the ability to work near the threshold? I'm not really sure what the muscle adaptations are. It was believed that the muscle would improve its ability to flush out lactic acid but I think that now the belief is that it is bringing in more oxygen and fuel. Is that true? Maybe I should start a new thread on beyond the lactic acid theory.
|
|
|
|
|
shimanilami
Sep 28, 2010, 6:54 PM
Post #22 of 69
(11979 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 24, 2006
Posts: 2043
|
I routinely accuse my friend Dan of being too strong.
Of course, I am referring to his BO, not his climbing.
|
|
|
|
|
j_ung
Sep 28, 2010, 10:04 PM
Post #23 of 69
(11880 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 21, 2003
Posts: 18690
|
mheyman wrote: Re: [ceebo] Can you be too strong? To answer the OP's question: Absolutely. You will know it when you begin to pull walls and mountains down on yourself. If you are too strong, stick to small stuff so you won't be injured by falling debris!
I scrolled the thread hoping beyond hope that this joke had not yet been taken. Well played, sir.
|
|
|
|
|
gunkiemike
Sep 30, 2010, 9:38 PM
Post #24 of 69
(11720 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 1, 2002
Posts: 2266
|
To get back to the OP's question. I believe you can be so strong that strength is not what's holding you back. But I would call that "strong enough".
Now, are you flexible enough? Skilled enough?
|
|
|
|
|
brijoel
Oct 8, 2010, 2:31 PM
Post #25 of 69
(11450 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 28, 2006
Posts: 31
|
gunkiemike wrote: To get back to the OP's question. I believe you can be so strong that strength is not what's holding you back. But I would call that "strong enough". Now, are you flexible enough? Skilled enough?
I'm good enough,
I'm smart enough,
and doggone it,
PEOPLE LIKE ME!
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
