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ladyscarlett
Jan 30, 2011, 5:32 AM
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With a double rope rappel, what knot do you use to secure the two ropes together?
I've heard arguments for a few different knots, but I'd love to hear the pros and cons of what people use around here.
I will say this, I'm lucky enough to climb in areas where there are plenty of rope eating cracks, so a low profile knot/a knot that is less likely get caught on/in stuff is a definite advantage in my book. I'm totally for reducing the number of cracks I need to up and downclimb to pry a rope out.
any knots I should completely stay away from no matter what my new climbing partner of the day says?
cheers
LS
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USnavy
Jan 30, 2011, 5:39 AM
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EDK, flemish bend, double fisherman's, they all work, it just depends on the application.
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mikebee
Jan 30, 2011, 5:55 AM
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Ropes of similar diameter: EDK (double overhand)
Ropes of significantly differing diameter: Double Fisherman's
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curt
Jan 30, 2011, 6:04 AM
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Double Fisherman's regardless--just don't be a retard when you pull your ropes down.
Curt
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ladyscarlett
Jan 30, 2011, 6:24 AM
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ok, given so far more than two different knots have been presented.
What are the advantages of using the fisherman's over the EDK? Or the EDK over the fisherman's?
If the name of the game is 'it depends...' what does it depend on?
Cheers
LS
(This post was edited by ladyscarlett on Jan 30, 2011, 9:37 AM)
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jt512
Jan 30, 2011, 6:40 AM
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ladyscarlett wrote: ok, given so far more than two different knots have been presented. What are the advantages of using the fisherman's over the EDK? Or the EDK over the fisherman's? If the name of the game is 'it depends...' what does it depend on? Cheers Sasha
The EDK and double fisherman are both sufficiently strong. However, the EDK is far less likely to get stuck when pulling the rope. There are no advantages to the double fisherman that I am aware of, unless, possibly, the ropes are of drastically different diameter or are wet.
Therefore, with dry ropes that aren't of drastically different diameters, the EDK is superior; with wet ropes or ropes of drastically different diameter, it may be less clear.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Jan 30, 2011, 6:42 AM)
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Vegasclimber10
Jan 30, 2011, 11:24 AM
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As Jay said.
The EDK has a tendency to roll over the lip of edges rather then get hung up on them.
Both the EDK and double fishermans are viable, but if I know the knot is going over a ledge or into a groove, I will use the EDK.
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Greggle
Jan 30, 2011, 11:43 AM
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ladyscarlett wrote: ok, given so far more than two different knots have been presented. What are the advantages of using the fisherman's over the EDK? Or the EDK over the fisherman's? If the name of the game is 'it depends...' what does it depend on? Cheers LS
Why haven't you called? I miss you...
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qwert
Jan 30, 2011, 1:16 PM
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Overhand (aka (for whatever retarded reason) EDK)
Just make sure you leave rather long tails, dress it properly and pull it tight before you hang on it.
And if you want to read on the subject, just search for "rappel knot" or "EDK" or whatever, there about a gazillion pages worth of discussion on this subject on this site.
qwert
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j_ung
Jan 30, 2011, 2:12 PM
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qwert wrote: Overhand (aka (for whatever retarded reason) EDK)
I think I first heard the term and saw the knot sometime in the early or mid nineties. It popped up in the context of don't ever do this. The cat who showed it to me also showed me the far superior American version, which is a flat 8 instead of a flat overhand. Of course, now we know that the EDK is superior to the "ADK," but the name, Euro-death knot, just sort of stuck.
I use the EDK almost exclusively for double-rope rappels, and I love the name. I love saying it, especially in front of newbie climbers who don't know anything about its history. "We're going to rappel on these ropes, which I've joined with a Euro-death knot." 
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markc
Jan 30, 2011, 2:16 PM
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Thomas Moyer tested various rappel knots with a number of different ropes and conditions. While he wrote at the time that he only uses the EKD when he's worried about snags, it was that report that made me comfortable with a well-dressed EKD with sufficiently long tails. It's available here:
http://www.xmission.com/...yer/testing/EDK.html
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climboard
Jan 30, 2011, 3:53 PM
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I almost always use the EDK. Not only does it snag less but it is quicker to tie than the DF and much easier to untie after being weighted.
I'd use the Flemish bend as a second choice and the DF as a distant third.
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climbingtrash
Jan 30, 2011, 4:04 PM
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I prefer this...
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swoopee
Jan 30, 2011, 4:10 PM
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EDK
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kachoong
Jan 30, 2011, 5:20 PM
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vegastradguy wrote: j_ung wrote: I use the EDK almost exclusively for double-rope rappels, and I love the name. I love saying it, especially in front of newbie climbers who don't know anything about its history. "We're going to rappel on these ropes, which I've joined with a Euro-death knot." you've got alot of evil inside you, jay...
Unless you're a Euro you should be fine.
My choice of knot is a well-dressed EDK and usually with a second dressed up against the first in long tails. Unless the rock is super "catchy" like at RR and then I may just go with the single, depending upon the individual situation. Different diameters I'll always put in the second knot.
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majid_sabet
Jan 30, 2011, 5:41 PM
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Greggle wrote: ladyscarlett wrote: ok, given so far more than two different knots have been presented. What are the advantages of using the fisherman's over the EDK? Or the EDK over the fisherman's? If the name of the game is 'it depends...' what does it depend on? Cheers LS Why haven't you called? I miss you...
wait a minute, what is this all about ?
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chadnsc
Jan 30, 2011, 6:40 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: Greggle wrote: ladyscarlett wrote: ok, given so far more than two different knots have been presented. What are the advantages of using the fisherman's over the EDK? Or the EDK over the fisherman's? If the name of the game is 'it depends...' what does it depend on? Cheers LS Why haven't you called? I miss you... wait a minute, what is this all about ?
It was about climbing stuff; nothing that concerns you Midget. 
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rgold
Jan 30, 2011, 6:41 PM
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I think the EDK wins hands-down for non-rescue work. It rides over obstructions (this has been tested) and is easy to tie and untie. I don't know if I'd want to use it with a 10.5mm rope and a 6mm pull-cord, but with any two climbing-size ropes of different diameters it is fine, and, tied correctly, should in principle (there are no tests that I know of) be less prone to rolling than the EDK with two equal diameter ropes.
It is easy to add an extra backup overhand (there is a right and wrong way to do this) in case one is concerned, for example if the ropes are soaked.
Correct way of tying with unequal diameter ropes:
Correct way of adding overhand back-up:
The overhand back-up can, of course, be used with two ropes of the same diameter. In order to identify the correct strand to use, draw the two load-bearing strands apart (as if the knot were being rapped on) and note which turn of the knot they most immediately pull on. This is the strand that should be used for the back-up knot.
Caution: the ends in these photos are short so as to fit in the frame. Proper end-length is the length of the forearm.
(This post was edited by rgold on Jan 30, 2011, 6:43 PM)
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ladyscarlett
Jan 30, 2011, 11:19 PM
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hmmm, didn't know there was a right or wrong way to do the EDK with different diameter ropes.
Whoa...I think I just learned something. Hope my head doesn't explode!
Thanks for the input! I was recently on the side of a mountain and was talking about this very subject with a newish climbing partner. He had been taught to use nothing other than the DF, and can barely look at people rapping on the EDK.
I on the other hand had never used anything but the EDK, for all the reasons we use it. So I was taking a little poll.
I think I will make sure that my newish partner and I do our first simul rap together on a EDK, heh. but call me a chicken, I'm going to put in a backup.
Out of curiosity, when leaving enough length for the tails, are we talking forearm length of you crazy big 6 ft plus dudes? or some little forearm like mine? Don't be fooled, there can be a good 6 inches difference (heh heh)! I've taken a close look!
I'll bet it doesn't matter, but this IS a rap knot, I'd like to know one way or another...
Cheers
LS
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rgold
Jan 30, 2011, 11:37 PM
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@Lady Scarlet: Because of the increased loading, I'd use the backup overhand for simulrapping too. Note that there is a correct strand to do it with.
My forearm-sized tails come out to about fifteen inches.
Repeated and/or high loading on a DF makes it extremely hard to untie, in addition to it being more prone to catching on features.
If the terrain is smooth and resistance or hang-ups of the knot are not an issue, I think the best knot (for quite a while it was the standard among people I knew) is the good old square knot, backed up on each side with a double-overhand. (It looks like a square knot between the double overhands of a fisherman's knot.) This knot is secure but also is easy to untie.
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ladyscarlett
Jan 31, 2011, 12:11 AM
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rgold wrote: My forearm-sized tails come out to about fifteen inches.
Who!! That's way more than 6inches longer than mine!!
I knew it, length DOES matter!
If we ever hypothetically cross paths and climb together, how bout you take the wide crack pitches, I'll take the tight hands!
Hee hee
Cheers!
LS
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socalclimber
Jan 31, 2011, 1:09 AM
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EDK has always worked for me. As rgold says, just make sure the tails are long.
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USnavy
Jan 31, 2011, 1:12 AM
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rgold wrote: I don't know if I'd want to use it with a 10.5mm rope and a 6mm pull-cord,
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rgold
Jan 31, 2011, 1:27 AM
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@USN: I was so unclear as to be misleading on this. If you are attaching a pull cord, then the knot doesn't have to do anything besides jamming in the rap anchor ring and then sustaining enough of a load to pull the rope down.
If you rap on both strands so that the knot is loaded, that's a different story. But come to think of it, the EDK should be less susceptible to rolling the greater the difference in diameters is (assuming it has been tied correctly---I wouldn't trust it incorrectly tied with a substantial difference in diameters).
The only caution here is that the reasoning is based on the assumption that the EDK fails by rolling, and correct tying of unequal diameter ropes decreases the rolling potential. But what if, for ropes with greatly differing diameters, there is another failure mode? I haven't heard of anyone testing those situations.
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