|
notapplicable
Mar 19, 2011, 4:08 AM
Post #26 of 41
(5985 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 31, 2006
Posts: 17771
|
robdotcalm wrote: A detailed account of the accident can be found at http://communique.uccs.edu/?p=3270 It appears that the rope did not quite reach the ground and one end of the rope slipped through the rappel device. rob.calm
OK, so they did one 40 ft. rap, followed by a 100 ft. rap and the rope was only a little short.
What I cannot figure out is how the whole rope got pulled down with the fallen person. Even if he was 10 ft. short, enough rope should not have gone through the anchor for it to "pull itself" under it's own weight.
The only thing I can think is that they were on a 50m rope.
(This post was edited by notapplicable on Mar 19, 2011, 4:09 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
summerprophet
Mar 19, 2011, 4:30 AM
Post #27 of 41
(5975 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 17, 2004
Posts: 764
|
majid_sabet wrote: There are over 55 ways to get killed from rappelling and been stuck in a canyon or any remote area surly ranks the top on the list.
|
|
|
|
|
blondgecko
Moderator
Mar 19, 2011, 4:45 AM
Post #28 of 41
(5966 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 2, 2004
Posts: 7666
|
notapplicable wrote: robdotcalm wrote: A detailed account of the accident can be found at http://communique.uccs.edu/?p=3270 It appears that the rope did not quite reach the ground and one end of the rope slipped through the rappel device. rob.calm OK, so they did one 40 ft. rap, followed by a 100 ft. rap and the rope was only a little short. What I cannot figure out is how the whole rope got pulled down with the fallen person. Even if he was 10 ft. short, enough rope should not have gone through the anchor for it to "pull itself" under it's own weight. The only thing I can think is that they were on a 50m rope.
Is it possible that they'd tied independent knots in each end of the rope, and one of them came undone?
|
|
|
|
|
blondgecko
Moderator
Mar 19, 2011, 4:48 AM
Post #29 of 41
(5965 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 2, 2004
Posts: 7666
|
kovacs69 wrote: blondgecko wrote: This "certain person" has been away at a conference for two days, with very little spare time. I'm not a fool - if, by the time I see it, a productive thread has sprung up, I'm not going to do anything. But seriously, is it really too much to ask of people to briefly summarize stories in this forum, rather than simply post links? If so, that's... disappointing. This OP will endeavor to do better next time. JB
Thank you. If only everyone was so understanding.
|
|
|
|
|
billl7
Mar 19, 2011, 5:03 AM
Post #30 of 41
(5958 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 13, 2005
Posts: 1890
|
notapplicable wrote: What I cannot figure out is how the whole rope got pulled down with the fallen person. Even if he was 10 ft. short, enough rope should not have gone through the anchor for it to "pull itself" under it's own weight.
The first of the below web sites indicates that the longest rap in North Fork is 130 feet. The second indicates to bring a 60M rope and a pull cord if doing just the North Fork.
http://www.canyoneering.net/...howthread.php?t=3583
http://www.ajroadtrips.com/...rs-roost/nomans.html
It could be that their intended two raps together total 130 feet. Or, besides other possible causes already mentioned, it could be that the second rap was too long for their 200 foot rope when doubled up.
The article of the accident did specifically state that Louis found the middle of the rope and then tossed the threaded rope.
Bill L
(This post was edited by billl7 on Mar 19, 2011, 5:04 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
billl7
Mar 19, 2011, 5:20 AM
Post #31 of 41
(5949 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 13, 2005
Posts: 1890
|
"There were 4 Rappels, the last one being 100+ feet long ...."
source: http://www.adventureplus.org/robbersroost.htm
And, meaning no disrespect to family and friends, there is this quote "There were no rope burns on Louis's hands. His glasses were still on his face when he was found. His visage was peaceful and there was no evidence of head trauma or suffering. The official cause of death is a broken pelvis."
source: http://www.bogley.com/...66-Death-in-No-Man-s
Bill L
Edit to add: The person posting the above went on to say ... "Based on these and the other details mentioned ..., we believe that he rapped off the end of the rope fully expecting to land what he perceived to be a reasonably short jump. We also believe that the most likely cause of his fatal injury was a bad landing."
(This post was edited by billl7 on Mar 19, 2011, 5:41 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
majid_sabet
Mar 19, 2011, 5:27 AM
Post #32 of 41
(5944 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 13, 2002
Posts: 8390
|
summerprophet wrote: majid_sabet wrote: There are over 55 ways to get killed from rappelling and been stuck in a canyon or any remote area surly ranks the top on the list. I thought hitting the ground ranked top of the list
hitting it its easy but surviving in the canyon and without knowing how to get out is a slow kill.
|
|
|
|
|
moose_droppings
Mar 19, 2011, 5:41 AM
Post #33 of 41
(5938 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 7, 2005
Posts: 3371
|
majid_sabet wrote: wwalt822 wrote: This thread should stay. As far as we know they were not using caynoneering specific techniques. That last thread from majid that got locked down was about someone who died because they had 20ft of slack in the line and jumped off relying on their brake hand, nothing really to discuss or learn from there. It would be beneficial for climbers to learn what caused this accident with the most likely reason being going off the end of one rope or misthreading. I got this report the first day but did not to post in RC till I find out what went wrong.Rappelling in canyon even thought some people in RC think that is not part of rock climbing still shares the same gear and techniques and so far in 2011, almost five people have died from it. There are over 55 ways to get killed from rappelling and been stuck in a canyon or any remote area surly ranks the top on the list.
(to the tune of Paul Simon's, "50 Ways to Leave Your Lover")
There must be, 55 ways to die rappelling
You could
pass the end of your rope, Dope,
forget to anchor, Wanker,
fail to tie a knot, Scott,
They'll all set you free.
You might,
cross load a biner, Wiener,
pull a piece of pro, Joe,
rope gets the chop, Pop,
You'll then fall free.
You could
forget to tie in, Jim
not stick to your plan, Stan
not lock a gate, Pate,
A speck in the deck you'll be.
|
|
|
|
|
squierbypetzl
Moderator
Mar 19, 2011, 5:49 AM
Post #34 of 41
(5929 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 6, 2005
Posts: 3431
|
*Aplause/*
Sorry to hear about this incident, my condolences to those who knew him.
|
|
|
|
|
notapplicable
Mar 19, 2011, 4:47 PM
Post #35 of 41
(5875 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 31, 2006
Posts: 17771
|
billl7 wrote: "There were 4 Rappels, the last one being 100+ feet long ...." source: http://www.adventureplus.org/robbersroost.htm And, meaning no disrespect to family and friends, there is this quote " There were no rope burns on Louis's hands. His glasses were still on his face when he was found. His visage was peaceful and there was no evidence of head trauma or suffering. The official cause of death is a broken pelvis." source: http://www.bogley.com/...66-Death-in-No-Man-s Bill L Edit to add: The person posting the above went on to say ... " Based on these and the other details mentioned ..., we believe that he rapped off the end of the rope fully expecting to land what he perceived to be a reasonably short jump. We also believe that the most likely cause of his fatal injury was a bad landing."
So if the rappel was 130 ft. then that would pull enough rope through the anchor for the weight of the longer strand to overcome the friction at the anchor and pull the short side through.
If, however, the above quote is true and Louis only dropped a short distance, it still seems odd to me that the rope got pulled back through the anchor.
I'm kind of surprised that someone didn't rehang the rope to see just how short he ended up being. Seems like that would be SOP for any basic investigation in to an accident like this.
|
|
|
|
|
billl7
Mar 19, 2011, 6:31 PM
Post #36 of 41
(5854 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 13, 2005
Posts: 1890
|
notapplicable wrote: So if the rappel was 130 ft. then that would pull enough rope through the anchor for the weight of the longer strand to overcome the friction at the anchor and pull the short side through. If, however, the above quote is true and Louis only dropped a short distance, it still seems odd to me that the rope got pulled back through the anchor.
This is a stretch but perhaps the circumstances added up towards the rope eventually pulling through. A la ...
a) rope ends uneven already for the 100+ foot rap; assume the short end is already up, say 5 feet;
b) when short end slips through the ATC, Louis drops another 5 feet to the landing which raises the short end another 5 feet (now 10 feet total);
c) landing is bad and Louis falls farther down the canyon (?), dragging the short end up 10 or so more feet; maybe short end is now 20 or more feet up from the landing and 30 or more feet above the longer end; [I have no idea if the actual landing would allow for falling some greater distance.]
d) anchor point was carefully hung over the lip so perhaps not much other resistance to the imbalance than rope over rap rings (?); (Late edit: the report indicates the sling was "almost" to the edge and Louis stated fingers could get caught between the rope and the rock ... implying the rap ring was not over the lip at that point during his rap.)
That still adds up to not a huge imbalance. Still, a little rope momentum from the dynamic fall might get things going enough. And it might be interesting to know how much a free-hanging 10 mm rope can be out of balance before it reaches the tipping point.
Bill L
Edit to add: In an unexpected fall, I might grab the rope in front of me in a panic and pull it down to the ground with me ... adding a few more feet of imbalance.
(This post was edited by billl7 on Mar 19, 2011, 9:20 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
patto
Mar 19, 2011, 7:42 PM
Post #37 of 41
(5837 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 15, 2005
Posts: 1453
|
billl7 wrote: That still adds up to not a huge imbalance. Still, a little rope momentum from the dynamic fall might get things going enough. And it might be interesting to know how much a free-hanging 10 mm rope can be out of balance before it reaches the tipping point.
If just looped through a single point the its not much at all. The standard 1.6x pulley factor lets you work it out. That works out to be 60% weight transferred. So you need the heavy side to be 1.666x heavier than the light side.
So for a 60m rope the tipping point is 22.5m and 37.5m. With momentum it would naturally be less.
|
|
|
|
|
milesenoell
Mar 19, 2011, 8:50 PM
Post #38 of 41
(5824 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 19, 2006
Posts: 1156
|
notapplicable wrote: billl7 wrote: "There were 4 Rappels, the last one being 100+ feet long ...." source: http://www.adventureplus.org/robbersroost.htm And, meaning no disrespect to family and friends, there is this quote " There were no rope burns on Louis's hands. His glasses were still on his face when he was found. His visage was peaceful and there was no evidence of head trauma or suffering. The official cause of death is a broken pelvis." source: http://www.bogley.com/...66-Death-in-No-Man-s Bill L Edit to add: The person posting the above went on to say ... " Based on these and the other details mentioned ..., we believe that he rapped off the end of the rope fully expecting to land what he perceived to be a reasonably short jump. We also believe that the most likely cause of his fatal injury was a bad landing." So if the rappel was 130 ft. then that would pull enough rope through the anchor for the weight of the longer strand to overcome the friction at the anchor and pull the short side through. If, however, the above quote is true and Louis only dropped a short distance, it still seems odd to me that the rope got pulled back through the anchor. I'm kind of surprised that someone didn't rehang the rope to see just how short he ended up being. Seems like that would be SOP for any basic investigation in to an accident like this.
+1
The scenario bill described sounds possible, though I'd think someone would be curious enough to test it. The other thing that occurred to me is that if it happened similar to how bill described, the rope may have started out moving slowly, and not raised suspicion until it started to to slide through faster near the end (at which point there may not have been enough time to respond).
I'm also a little confused by the quoted bit: "no evidence of head trauma or suffering. the official cause of death is a broken pelvis."
Frankly I'd think massive head trauma would be indicative of minimal suffering, not the other way around.I'd expect dying of a broken pelvis to involve a significant degree of suffering.
RIP and condolences to the family and friends.
|
|
|
|
|
milesenoell
Mar 19, 2011, 8:57 PM
Post #39 of 41
(5817 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 19, 2006
Posts: 1156
|
patto wrote: billl7 wrote: That still adds up to not a huge imbalance. Still, a little rope momentum from the dynamic fall might get things going enough. And it might be interesting to know how much a free-hanging 10 mm rope can be out of balance before it reaches the tipping point. If just looped through a single point the its not much at all. The standard 1.6x pulley factor lets you work it out. That works out to be 60% weight transferred. So you need the heavy side to be 1.666x heavier than the light side. So for a 60m rope the tipping point is 22.5m and 37.5m. With momentum it would naturally be less.
First off it was a rap ring not a biner, so the contact area and friction are different. Second of all your calculations don't include friction with the rock which is far from insignificant. The article even mentioned a comment made about not getting a hand stuck between the rope and the rock when going over the edge, so we have reason to believe that the rope was routed over an edge with a considerable opportunity for friction.
|
|
|
|
|
billl7
Mar 19, 2011, 9:01 PM
Post #40 of 41
(5807 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 13, 2005
Posts: 1890
|
milesenoell wrote: I'm also a little confused by the quoted bit: "no evidence of head trauma or suffering. the official cause of death is a broken pelvis." Frankly I'd think massive head trauma would be indicative of minimal suffering, not the other way around.I'd expect dying of a broken pelvis to involve a significant degree of suffering.
I wondered about that. Louis's partner mentioned he heard nothing from Louis after the fall despite calling for him.
I mentioned the fatality and the nature of the injuries to someone who works hospice and is familiar with complications from falls.
Without batting an eye, she said "I bet I know the cause." She went on to say the pelvis is a major bone with a lot of blood flow. A broken pelvis would bleed a lot. With bleeding comes clots. A clot to the lungs can impair breathing or to the brain can cause a serious stroke ... relatively fast-acting complications.
Just a guess. There may be folks here who are more knowledgable about the matter.
Bill L
Edit: And there was mention of an upcoming autopsy report - perhaps later there will be something concrete about this.
(This post was edited by billl7 on Mar 19, 2011, 9:02 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
billl7
Mar 19, 2011, 9:10 PM
Post #41 of 41
(5800 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 13, 2005
Posts: 1890
|
milesenoell wrote: ... calculations don't include friction with the rock which is far from insignificant. The article even mentioned a comment made about not getting a hand stuck between the rope and the rock when going over the edge, so we have reason to believe that the rope was routed over an edge with a considerable opportunity for friction.
It was me who mentioned the possibility of a relatively free-hanging rope. Buit it does read the way you indicate. Still we won't really know the significance of friction from the rock unless someone has been there and seen the sling and how close it ran to the vertical part of the rap.
Indications are that there was not a lot of friction from rock.
Bill L
|
|
|
|
|
|
