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socalclimber
Apr 29, 2011, 11:39 AM
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Here's what I know so far. The climber was found on the ground with the rope attached to his harness with a figure 8 on a bight in the middle of the rope. They had one ATC style device between them. They were using a single 70 meter rope.
I've always used two 60's for the rap on that route.
Unfortunately the two people I need to talk to are both out of town, so I'm waiting to talk to them.
(This post was edited by socalclimber on Apr 29, 2011, 11:53 AM)
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billl7
Apr 29, 2011, 12:37 PM
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socalclimber wrote: Here's what I know so far. The climber was found on the ground with the rope attached to his harness with a figure 8 on a bight in the middle of the rope. They had one ATC style device between them. They were using a single 70 meter rope.
Eerie. Almost exactly the same post-accident facts as a rap / descent accident here last summer right down to using a 70 meter rope. Only difference to the above was the tie-in point may have not been exactly in the middle.
Here, one rapped on the ATC. The last person was lowered after tieing into the ~middle of the rope rather than rapping on a munter or pulling up an end to tie into for lowering.
Bill L
(This post was edited by billl7 on Apr 29, 2011, 12:44 PM)
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socalclimber
Apr 29, 2011, 12:43 PM
Post #53 of 77
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I am having similar thoughts, but I still need to get a few answers to questions that I posed in an email. Hopefully I will hear something soon.
Tragic either way.
I have to say, the only positive thing that has come out of these rap accidents for me is that I have a huge awareness about the dangers. I have to rap a lot for my job. I overly check my systems before I commit.
Again sorry for the friends and family's loss.
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billl7
Apr 29, 2011, 12:46 PM
Post #54 of 77
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Thanks for following up on those details, Robert. Many here appreciate that including me.
Condolences to those who were close to David. There's not much more painful to endure in our lives. We are all capable of making serious mistakes in this.
Bill L
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socalclimber
Apr 29, 2011, 12:57 PM
Post #55 of 77
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There is still another possibility but I have to wait to hear.
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socalclimber
May 2, 2011, 1:06 PM
Post #56 of 77
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I have spoken with the head of the SAR team and this is all they know.
Dave had lowered his partner to the next anchor with his belay device. The partner clipped in to the anchor and yelled off rappel. The next thing the partner new was that Dave was flying by him. Again, Dave was found at the bottom with the rope attached to his harness with a figure 8 on a bight tied at the mid point of the rope.
Unfortunately I don't think we are ever going to know exactly what happened with this accident.
I am trying to find out what kind of belay device he was using, if it was a grigri, cinch, or ATC style. Based on that answer, it could provide some clues to better understand what happened.
There are a couple of points here that should be clear, 1) he obviously wasn't clipped into the anchor, and 2) Walk On The Wild Side is usually a double rope rappel with either 50 or 60 meter ropes.
A single 70 meter is pretty short for this task. I've been asking around to see if any of us locals know how far apart the anchors are. I have not been on that route in 10 years or so. We all seem to concur that the 70 meter single rope rap is pushing it.
I'll post up more when I have more.
Edit:
My previous post regarding the ATC may be inaccurate. The details on this are sketchy and I am trying to sort it out.
My apologies.
(This post was edited by socalclimber on May 2, 2011, 1:09 PM)
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billl7
May 2, 2011, 1:36 PM
Post #57 of 77
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Thanks again, Robert. Sounds a little different than the accident I mentioned.
If known, I'd be interested in what kind of personal anchoring device David was using. That issue with a rubber piece holding an open draw to a biner comes to mind.
Bill
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curt
May 2, 2011, 2:39 PM
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Somewhat off topic, but FYI, there is an alternate descent to WOTWS that involves only a bit of scrambling (or one short rap) off the south side of the formation.
Curt
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socalclimber
May 2, 2011, 2:43 PM
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Yup, and nobody does it anymore now that the anchors are there. I've done it, but ask anybody in the "modern" day climbing era and they won't know what you're talking about.
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captromalley
May 2, 2011, 3:38 PM
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I've climbed in the park a few times and gotten on "the walk" once and had a very scary time getting down in the dark on one 60 meter. Luckily my partner and I have a decent sense even after doing something as stupid as heading up this climb so ill prepared. It is certainly a very hard climb to get off of without the proper gear. Very very sorry to hear of the loss as it could have so easily have been my partner or I last year.
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scrapedape
May 2, 2011, 3:51 PM
Post #61 of 77
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socalclimber wrote: I have spoken with the head of the SAR team and this is all they know. Dave had lowered his partner to the next anchor with his belay device. The partner clipped in to the anchor and yelled off rappel. The next thing the partner new was that Dave was flying by him. Again, Dave was found at the bottom with the rope attached to his harness with a figure 8 on a bight tied at the mid point of the rope. Unfortunately I don't think we are ever going to know exactly what happened with this accident. I am trying to find out what kind of belay device he was using, if it was a grigri, cinch, or ATC style. Based on that answer, it could provide some clues to better understand what happened. There are a couple of points here that should be clear, 1) he obviously wasn't clipped into the anchor, and 2) Walk On The Wild Side is usually a double rope rappel with either 50 or 60 meter ropes. A single 70 meter is pretty short for this task. I've been asking around to see if any of us locals know how far apart the anchors are. I have not been on that route in 10 years or so. We all seem to concur that the 70 meter single rope rap is pushing it. I'll post up more when I have more. Edit: My previous post regarding the ATC may be inaccurate. The details on this are sketchy and I am trying to sort it out. My apologies.
Do you know where on his harness it was attached? And with what sort of biner (locker or non)?
Speculating here: it may be that he had simply tied the rope off to himself to avoid dropping it while threading the anchor. If that were the case, he wouldn't necessarily have attached it to his belay loop or used a locker, which is more what I would expect if he had been planning to load the knot.
Of course, the knot being connected to the belay loop with a locker wouldn't preclude the explanation above; but a nonlocker or a connection elsewhere on the harness would suggest that he hadn't been planning to weight the knot.
How you get from there to falling is another question, which requires more speculation still. I'll hold off for now.
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Gmburns2000
May 2, 2011, 4:01 PM
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scrapedape wrote: socalclimber wrote: I have spoken with the head of the SAR team and this is all they know. Dave had lowered his partner to the next anchor with his belay device. The partner clipped in to the anchor and yelled off rappel. The next thing the partner new was that Dave was flying by him. Again, Dave was found at the bottom with the rope attached to his harness with a figure 8 on a bight tied at the mid point of the rope. Unfortunately I don't think we are ever going to know exactly what happened with this accident. I am trying to find out what kind of belay device he was using, if it was a grigri, cinch, or ATC style. Based on that answer, it could provide some clues to better understand what happened. There are a couple of points here that should be clear, 1) he obviously wasn't clipped into the anchor, and 2) Walk On The Wild Side is usually a double rope rappel with either 50 or 60 meter ropes. A single 70 meter is pretty short for this task. I've been asking around to see if any of us locals know how far apart the anchors are. I have not been on that route in 10 years or so. We all seem to concur that the 70 meter single rope rap is pushing it. I'll post up more when I have more. Edit: My previous post regarding the ATC may be inaccurate. The details on this are sketchy and I am trying to sort it out. My apologies. Do you know where on his harness it was attached? And with what sort of biner (locker or non)? Speculating here: it may be that he had simply tied the rope off to himself to avoid dropping it while threading the anchor. If that were the case, he wouldn't necessarily have attached it to his belay loop or used a locker, which is more what I would expect if he had been planning to load the knot. Of course, the knot being connected to the belay loop with a locker wouldn't preclude the explanation above; but a nonlocker or a connection elsewhere on the harness would suggest that he hadn't been planning to weight the knot. How you get from there to falling is another question, which requires more speculation still. I'll hold off for now.
I was speculating something similar to this and that maybe, not relevant to the rope, per se, he thought he was still connected to the anchor and wasn't. In other words, it is possible the rope is a bit of a red herring?
I know, speculation is bad. My apologies if it way off base.
Sincerest apologies to his family and friends.
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scrapedape
May 2, 2011, 4:23 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: scrapedape wrote: socalclimber wrote: I have spoken with the head of the SAR team and this is all they know. Dave had lowered his partner to the next anchor with his belay device. The partner clipped in to the anchor and yelled off rappel. The next thing the partner new was that Dave was flying by him. Again, Dave was found at the bottom with the rope attached to his harness with a figure 8 on a bight tied at the mid point of the rope. Unfortunately I don't think we are ever going to know exactly what happened with this accident. I am trying to find out what kind of belay device he was using, if it was a grigri, cinch, or ATC style. Based on that answer, it could provide some clues to better understand what happened. There are a couple of points here that should be clear, 1) he obviously wasn't clipped into the anchor, and 2) Walk On The Wild Side is usually a double rope rappel with either 50 or 60 meter ropes. A single 70 meter is pretty short for this task. I've been asking around to see if any of us locals know how far apart the anchors are. I have not been on that route in 10 years or so. We all seem to concur that the 70 meter single rope rap is pushing it. I'll post up more when I have more. Edit: My previous post regarding the ATC may be inaccurate. The details on this are sketchy and I am trying to sort it out. My apologies. Do you know where on his harness it was attached? And with what sort of biner (locker or non)? Speculating here: it may be that he had simply tied the rope off to himself to avoid dropping it while threading the anchor. If that were the case, he wouldn't necessarily have attached it to his belay loop or used a locker, which is more what I would expect if he had been planning to load the knot. Of course, the knot being connected to the belay loop with a locker wouldn't preclude the explanation above; but a nonlocker or a connection elsewhere on the harness would suggest that he hadn't been planning to weight the knot. How you get from there to falling is another question, which requires more speculation still. I'll hold off for now. I was speculating something similar to this and that maybe, not relevant to the rope, per se, he thought he was still connected to the anchor and wasn't. In other words, it is possible the rope is a bit of a red herring?
I know, speculation is bad. My apologies if it way off base. Sincerest apologies to his family and friends.
I wasn't sure if I should make that post. But, I figured it was better to include the speculation, which helps to explain why I asked what I asked, than to just ask a couple of random questions.
And I'm very sorry to David's family, friends, and partner about his death.
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Gmburns2000
May 2, 2011, 4:34 PM
Post #64 of 77
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scrapedape wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: scrapedape wrote: socalclimber wrote: I have spoken with the head of the SAR team and this is all they know. Dave had lowered his partner to the next anchor with his belay device. The partner clipped in to the anchor and yelled off rappel. The next thing the partner new was that Dave was flying by him. Again, Dave was found at the bottom with the rope attached to his harness with a figure 8 on a bight tied at the mid point of the rope. Unfortunately I don't think we are ever going to know exactly what happened with this accident. I am trying to find out what kind of belay device he was using, if it was a grigri, cinch, or ATC style. Based on that answer, it could provide some clues to better understand what happened. There are a couple of points here that should be clear, 1) he obviously wasn't clipped into the anchor, and 2) Walk On The Wild Side is usually a double rope rappel with either 50 or 60 meter ropes. A single 70 meter is pretty short for this task. I've been asking around to see if any of us locals know how far apart the anchors are. I have not been on that route in 10 years or so. We all seem to concur that the 70 meter single rope rap is pushing it. I'll post up more when I have more. Edit: My previous post regarding the ATC may be inaccurate. The details on this are sketchy and I am trying to sort it out. My apologies. Do you know where on his harness it was attached? And with what sort of biner (locker or non)? Speculating here: it may be that he had simply tied the rope off to himself to avoid dropping it while threading the anchor. If that were the case, he wouldn't necessarily have attached it to his belay loop or used a locker, which is more what I would expect if he had been planning to load the knot. Of course, the knot being connected to the belay loop with a locker wouldn't preclude the explanation above; but a nonlocker or a connection elsewhere on the harness would suggest that he hadn't been planning to weight the knot. How you get from there to falling is another question, which requires more speculation still. I'll hold off for now. I was speculating something similar to this and that maybe, not relevant to the rope, per se, he thought he was still connected to the anchor and wasn't. In other words, it is possible the rope is a bit of a red herring?
I know, speculation is bad. My apologies if it way off base. Sincerest apologies to his family and friends. I wasn't sure if I should make that post. But, I figured it was better to include the speculation, which helps to explain why I asked what I asked, than to just ask a couple of random questions. And I'm very sorry to David's family, friends, and partner about his death.
Well, I did it, too, so I can't be one to complain. 
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majid_sabet
May 2, 2011, 5:10 PM
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 what is the distance between top anchor and the anchor where he lowered his partner ?
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socalclimber
May 2, 2011, 7:27 PM
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No I don't know where the rope was connected to the harness. But my guess is you are probably right. I routinely do the same thing all the time since I have to solo a lot to setup routes for clients. The last thing I need is the rope getting away from me.
For those who have not done the route, David was up on the ledge at the end of the second pitch. The route actually few people do the third. The ledge is good sized, I think he just slipped and wasn't tied into the anchor.
Here's a link to a trip report of my last ascent of this route about 10 years ago:
http://www.socalclimb.com/tr_wotws.html
At the bottom of page there is a picture of my partner and I at the second rap station. That is where David's partner was when the accident occurred. I'm still trying to find out how far apart the anchors. With 2 60 meter ropes for the rap, the ends are probably around 20 feet below the second station. From there is a quick rap to the ground. The problem is I am just dragging this number out of my hazy memory.
I don't think speculation is bad at this point. At least we have some info.
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cracklover
May 2, 2011, 7:55 PM
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socalclimber wrote: majid_sabet wrote: sp115 wrote: majid_sabet wrote: Based on my own personal record keeping ,in 2009 some 16 climbers with numerous climbing experiences died from rappelling alone and if I have to back track 10 year records, rappelling fatalities were always the number one on the list next to avalanche related incident.Based on what I have seen, almost 90% of the accident was preventable as simple as adding a safety knot or double checking the rap anchor before rappelling. Here is a reliable source that goes back to 1951... http://www.americanalpineclub.org/documents/pdf/anam/anam_2007.pdf Even the AAC record is not up to date and accurate cause not all reports make to their system. That I know for sure . Sorry if I come off grouchy, I am just really, really tired and had a very long day. This is the truth. In order to have incidents in ANAM published you have submit your reports. Many, many incidents do not get sent to ANAM for a large number of reasons. This parks has not been actively submitting reports for quite a while. I'll check to see if that has changed any, but my point is you cannot use ANAM submissions as an accurate metric for incident analysis statistics in this park. As far as to why I brought up things like ratings, this is due to the fact that there a lot of people who never post, but read the site regularly and have little clue about what they are getting themselves into. Excuse me if I offended and confused a handful of experts who climb here a month at best a season. I've lived and climbed here for a long time. I've watched the climbing demographic radically change in the last ten years.
ANAM is useful only for the stories. The statistics are total and complete garbage. I'm sorry to have to be so blunt, but it's true. One guy compiles the incidents, and he throws out the ones that aren't interesting to him, for whatever reasons he has. At least that was the case last time I talked to the folks at the AAC who oversee the operation about eight years ago. (And they were entirely unapologetic about it).
Take a look, and you'll find that there are some states that, according the the ANAM have *never* had any kind of accident. Why not? Because there is no "real" climbing in those states.
Regarding this accident, my deepest condolences to family and friends of the deceased.
GO
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fredbob
May 3, 2011, 6:09 PM
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socalclimber wrote: A single 70 meter is pretty short for this task. I've been asking around to see if any of us locals know how far apart the anchors are. I have not been on that route in 10 years or so. We all seem to concur that the 70 meter single rope rap is pushing it.
A single 60 meter rope is sufficient (barely) to rap WOTWS. With a 70m rope, it is no problem.
However, if there are other people on the route, make the second (of 3 raps) down to the Dial 911 anchor, not back to the belay in the hole atop pitch 1.
From the Dial 911 anchor, you can rap diagonally (climbers) right to the start of the route with a 60 meter rope (it just reaches -- but does NOT reach the ground). With a 70 meter rope you can rap directly to the ground (into notch at the base of Harlequin/Dial 911 et al).
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socalclimber
May 3, 2011, 7:00 PM
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Thank you Randy!
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socalclimber
May 6, 2011, 10:19 PM
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This is a bit of a recap.
I spoke with the Park Service. David was using an ATC style device. He did indeed lower his partner to the next set of rap anchors. The partner connected himself to the station and yelled off rappel. The next thing he knew, David was flying by him.
So this is what we know:
1) They only had one belay device between them
2) David obviously was not clipped into the anchor
3) It seems likely that David found the middle of the rope, tied the eight, and clipped it to his harness so he didn't loose the rope while he set up the rap
I can only hazard a guess that he just slipped.
That's about all I can tell you.
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majid_sabet
May 7, 2011, 2:48 AM
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socalclimber wrote: This is a bit of a recap. I spoke with the Park Service. David was using an ATC style device. He did indeed lower his partner to the next set of rap anchors. The partner connected himself to the station and yelled off rappel. The next thing he knew, David was flying by him. So this is what we know: 1) They only had one belay device between them 2) David obviously was not clipped into the anchor 3) It seems likely that David found the middle of the rope, tied the eight, and clipped it to his harness so he didn't loose the rope while he set up the rap I can only hazard a guess that he just slipped. That's about all I can tell you.
Can you find out if two strand of rope was hanging along the wall before he fell and if the ATC was on his belay loop ?
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enigma
May 8, 2011, 3:25 PM
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socalclimber
May 8, 2011, 3:40 PM
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enigma wrote: socalclimber wrote: This is a bit of a recap. I spoke with the Park Service. David was using an ATC style device. He did indeed lower his partner to the next set of rap anchors. The partner connected himself to the station and yelled off rappel. The next thing he knew, David was flying by him. So this is what we know: 1) They only had one belay device between them 2) David obviously was not clipped into the anchor 3) It seems likely that David found the middle of the rope, tied the eight, and clipped it to his harness so he didn't loose the rope while he set up the rap I can only hazard a guess that he just slipped. That's about all I can tell you. So if David didn't have an atc device since his partner just rappeled to the ground. Why didn't his partner know that? I mean how was David planning on getting down. Was his partner going to lower him , or send him the atc device, or did he have a grigri?
Please see the above bolded text.
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socalclimber
May 8, 2011, 3:42 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: socalclimber wrote: This is a bit of a recap. I spoke with the Park Service. David was using an ATC style device. He did indeed lower his partner to the next set of rap anchors. The partner connected himself to the station and yelled off rappel. The next thing he knew, David was flying by him. So this is what we know: 1) They only had one belay device between them 2) David obviously was not clipped into the anchor 3) It seems likely that David found the middle of the rope, tied the eight, and clipped it to his harness so he didn't loose the rope while he set up the rap I can only hazard a guess that he just slipped. That's about all I can tell you. Can you find out if two strand of rope was hanging along the wall before he fell and if the ATC was on his belay loop ?
I will try and find out. Good question.
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majid_sabet
May 9, 2011, 6:44 AM
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I have several questions which has not been answered yet so let me know when you get more info.
1- The length of this rap station from top to the ledge where his partner was lowered (if they had only 60 m rope then i am guessing it was under a 30 m rap).
2-Did he lower his partner with an ATC and if so, where was this ATC when he was found on the ground? (specifically the location of his ATC in reference to his harness ( on the belay loop....on the side of the harness etc)
3- were there anything else attached to his belay loop area? ie, slings, daisy , other slings or anchor attachment.
4_ were both side of the rope hanging from the wall before he fell to the ground ?
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