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Bats
Mar 12, 2011, 5:19 AM
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I went to my local outdoor store, and the assistant manager wanted to show me the Petzl Ange. For $10.95, I think I would rather want a WC Helium carabiners. It was different. I thought it was a bit gimmicky. What is your opinion on it? And does anybody have those?
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fuzzymonster
Mar 12, 2011, 5:57 AM
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Saw these just a few hours ago. First impression... They look cool! I wonder about two things though now.
One, wonder if having the one point of contact at the bottom of the gate as opposed to two like a regular biner alllows for greater sideways twisting of the gate. Two, if the thinner (side to side) allows for more chance of the gate opening. Both are probably hugely different from regular biners, but meh... these things interest me. 
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rocknice2
Mar 12, 2011, 2:44 PM
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Are these the same size as the Spirits
I saw them online and they are very very light. Too light for a full size biner.
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rocknice2
Mar 12, 2011, 2:50 PM
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fuzzymonster wrote: Saw these just a few hours ago. First impression... They look cool! I wonder about two things though now. One, wonder if having the one point of contact at the bottom of the gate as opposed to two like a regular biner alllows for greater sideways twisting of the gate. Two, if the thinner (side to side) allows for more chance of the gate opening. Both are probably hugely different from regular biners, but meh... these things interest me.
There are still 2 points of contact at the bottom. 1 on each side of the gate.
I would think the thinner gate has less to catch something that might open it.
(This post was edited by rocknice2 on Mar 12, 2011, 2:51 PM)
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sp115
Mar 12, 2011, 3:16 PM
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rocknice2 wrote: Are these the same size as the Spirits I saw them online and they are very very light. Too light for a full size biner.
Looks like there are two versions, the "S" and the "L" (small and large?). The "L" compares to the Spirit in overall size.
Ange L
Weight: 34 g
Material: aluminum
Breaking strength
- major axis: 22 kN
- open gate: 10 kN
- minor axis: 7 kN
Gate opening: 26 mm
Capacity: 21 mm
Spirit
Weight: 49 g
Material: hot-forged aluminum 7000
Breaking strength:
- major axis: 23 kN
- open gate: 9.5 kN
- cross-loaded: 10 kN
Gate opening: 20 mm
Looks like an interesting design and if they are anywhere near as durable as the bullet-proof Spirits then they should be a pretty good biner.
(This post was edited by sp115 on Mar 12, 2011, 3:17 PM)
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Bats
Mar 12, 2011, 4:31 PM
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Found another image.
I was right when I said WC Heliums were lighter, I just didn't realize its just a gram.
(This post was edited by Bats on Mar 12, 2011, 4:36 PM)
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shotwell
Mar 14, 2011, 1:00 PM
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No t-stock or i-stock carabiner can be as durable as a spirit. The spirit simply has more wear surface available. The Ange, Helium, Nano, etc., are not, in my consideration, primary sport climbing carabiners. Their lightweight construction just makes them wear out far too fast.
(This post was edited by shotwell on Mar 14, 2011, 1:02 PM)
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mattm
Mar 14, 2011, 2:48 PM
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shotwell wrote: No t-stock or i-stock carabiner can be as durable as a spirit. The spirit simply has more wear surface available. The Ange, Helium, Nano, etc., are not, in my consideration, primary sport climbing carabiners. Their lightweight construction just makes them wear out far too fast.
Not so sure about that. It will depend on the rope bearing radius of the biner, the SHAPE of that radius, the DEPTH of the material in that area and the material hardness.
Look at all the biners above. If looj like all the rope bearing areas are nearly the same (need calipers to do a direct comparison) The BD looks a bit thicker. If you wear through the "thick" part of any of these down to the more narrow "T" or "I-Beam" area including the sprirt (which is a "T" stock shape) it's time to replace them.
That SAID. I've always felt that the Spirits use a HARDER aluminum but never had any concrete proof. Zicral aluminum (Spirits) is 7075 with a fancy name from what I can tell.
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shotwell
Mar 14, 2011, 2:58 PM
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Agreed Matt. That first post was a drastic oversimplification. My experience over the long term is that DMM Aero and Petzl Spirit are the most durable sport climbing carabiners, though both are a modified t-stock. The material could very well be harder, as I wear out 'light-weight' carabiners, Black Diamond carabiners (of any shape), and any deeply forged carabiner roughly twice as fast as these two carabiners. If the Ange is a similar material to the Spirit, it could very well last a long time.
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dretket
Mar 23, 2011, 2:17 AM
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They are also more durable in regards to the gate action. When the Petzl rep was showing these to me last year, he stressed this point. The spring action on a traditional wire gate comes from the bending of the wire. With the Ange, it's built with an internal spring similar to whats found in solid gate 'biner. Because of this, it lasts something like 5 times longer. I forgot the figure he used, but it was something like 100,000 gate actions.
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mikebee
May 9, 2011, 5:38 AM
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I bought one of Ange S quickdraws for a bit of a test.
For a gear end biner it's ok, but for a rope end biner, it's really not very nice to clip.
The stiffness of the gate is fine, and having a single wire to push against doesn't bother me as much as I expected (I like having two wires providing a flat surface for clipping), but the thing that really bugs me with the Ange for a rope end biner is that the length of the gate is too short. I haven't measured it, but it's probably 15mm long, and trying to push a 10mm rope through it doesn't give a lot of room for error. A normal biner, even a small size one like a DMM Phantom, the actual gate length is longer making it easier to do sketchy clips first time.
Has anyone else got feedback bon the Ange after having used it for a while?
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juho.risku
May 9, 2011, 9:39 AM
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I've used quite a few light "clear clip" carabiners, including Ange. Personally I think Ange as a good alternative, especially the S-version is light, probably the lightest clear clip -type carabiner there is. For "full sized" version, WC Helium is slightly lighter and I think the ease of clipping is about the same in both. So in short, right now for "generic" quickdraw / other use carabiners, I'm buying Petzl Ange S and for application where I need a full sized ones, I'm going for Wild Country Heliums. In any case, they're both good quality carabiners...
Here's a few pointers to light "clear clip" carabiners I've used:
1) DMM Shield: http://www.tribevine.com/...20Shield%20Carabiner
2) Wild Country Helium: http://www.tribevine.com/...20Helium%20Carabiner
3) Mammut Bionic Wire Safe Gate: http://www.tribevine.com/...20Wire%20Safe%20Gate
4) Petzl Ange: http://www.tribevine.com/...name=Petzl%20%20Ange
And here's a list that allows specifications comparison of light clear clip carabiners: http://www.tribevine.com/...mp;title=Non-Locking
(This post was edited by juho.risku on May 9, 2011, 9:42 AM)
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patto
May 9, 2011, 10:48 AM
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An absolute gimmick that I doubt saves any weight. Two wires are traditionally used as they act as the spring and thus saving weight of a spring.
The weight savings are because it is so damn small and I-beam.
(This post was edited by patto on May 9, 2011, 10:58 AM)
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juho.risku
May 9, 2011, 11:16 AM
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I agree that the mono wire structure itself doesn't save any weight (the proof is that for instance full sized Wild Country Helium is lighter than similar sized Ange). This being said, it's not only a marketing gimic... should not atleast, for following reasons:
1. Gate structure is more durable, atleast according to manufacturer
2. Gate itself is lighter, thus reducing the risk of unintentional unclip (atleast according to some info I've red)
Furthermore I think that Ange really is well designed and well performing carabiner. For instance it's nose has a hole that allows ice, snow or dirt to be cleared out, it's shaped to help to keep the carabiner in correct direction and the rope surfaces are wider. I don't mean that there wouldn't be good alternatives (as said for full sized carabiners I prefer Wild Country Heliums), but it's still a good, well performing, well designed and light carabiner.
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scottek67
May 9, 2011, 11:39 AM
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juho.risku wrote: I agree that the mono wire structure itself doesn't save any weight (the proof is that for instance full sized Wild Country Helium is lighter than similar sized Ange). This being said, it's not only a marketing gimic... should not atleast, for following reasons: 1. Gate structure is more durable, atleast according to manufacturer 2. Gate itself is lighter, thus reducing the risk of unintentional unclip (atleast according to some info I've red) Furthermore I think that Ange really is well designed and well performing carabiner. For instance it's nose has a hole that allows ice, snow or dirt to be cleared out, it's shaped to help to keep the carabiner in correct direction and the rope surfaces are wider. I don't mean that there wouldn't be good alternatives (as said for full sized carabiners I prefer Wild Country Heliums), but it's still a good, well performing, well designed and light carabiner.
good job. 
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juho.risku
May 9, 2011, 11:49 AM
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+ to add one more perspective to the discussion. Don't know for sure, but I suspect that Petzl came up with the monofil system because there's some patent stuff preventing them (and others) from using Wild Country Helium approach (i.e. wiregate that has clear clip nose).
Other similar carabiners, are either not widely available - i.e. Mammut Bionic Wire Safe Gate - (only in certain countries) or use different approach - i.e. DMM Shield, Petzl Ange and Black Diamond Hoodwire.
Btw. DMM Shield and Mammut Bionic Wire Safe Gate use pretty similar arrangements... (wonder if DMM is also behind the Mammut's version).
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patto
May 9, 2011, 12:55 PM
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juho.risku wrote: 1. Gate structure is more durable, atleast according to manufacturer 2. Gate itself is lighter, thus reducing the risk of unintentional unclip (atleast according to some info I've red)
Gate flutter unclipped is largely an academic concern, with little evidence it is a problem. Gate flutter on wiregates is effectively non existent.
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juho.risku
May 9, 2011, 1:13 PM
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I think there's also third party evidence of "traditional" gate (which Ange in essense is) being more durable structure than wire gate... but agree in a sense that there are other parts in a carabiner that are likely to wear faster. I also agree on what cames to gate flutter (brought this up just to demonstrate that Ange is on par with other wiregates)... gate flutter newer affected my carabiner purchase decissions.
The above doesn't affect the bottomline though. :-) Ange, in my opinion, is a good carabiner... its quality is good and it's lightes clear clip I've found so far.
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bearbreeder
May 9, 2011, 2:48 PM
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i was comparing the gate sized at the store and thought that the ange looked like it had smaller gates
it definately felt like the spring was tighter than my heliums
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psecody
May 9, 2011, 3:00 PM
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Sorry didn't have enought time to read all the responses, I'm waiting to go to a final for school but I thought I'd throw in my two cents sorry if it's just a repeat of what was said above.
I had a guy show me these at a store in Austin the other day, I wasn't really crazy about them, of course I was thinking of sport climbing at the time and the gate just looked to small for my uncoordinated self to use sure reliably plus the way I use the gate with my thumb when I clip probably would work about as well as a solid gate. Basically I didn't like it.
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Rudmin
May 9, 2011, 3:51 PM
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Does anybody know where they put the spring on the Ange? Is it under that plastic black thing? Either way, I will wait for the large version. Seems like the best of both worlds.
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