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stoneguy
Aug 9, 2011, 12:40 AM
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I can't think of any 5.12 climbers that would want a 5.9 belaying for them. So what are we missing. Yes, everyone wants to go "up" but the Belay is also important. So, pay attention, don't drink beer, don't talk to the tourists.... What exactly do you expect? Part of the time the climber is out of sight.. usually we're on a GriGri. What do you want.. how can we be better? Pay out the rope on time, bring in the slack after a clip, maybe a "soft catch"..? What do you need...?
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TheNags
Aug 9, 2011, 1:57 AM
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Personally (keep in mind I am new), I belay on an ATC. I find it is easier to pay out slack when clipping, and I just feel more in control than with a gri gri. I am assuming you are talking about lead belay, because a 5.12 climber probably doesn't wanna TR all day. I have only been climbing 3 months and am by far the weakest climber in my group. As long as you can catch a big fall softly, and you pay attention, I have found that most experience climbers are happy to have you belay them, and as a newbie it is a great way to learn technique (by seeing it performed right in front of you). hope that helps!
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Player
Aug 9, 2011, 2:07 AM
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A 5.9 belaying them? So now how difficult you climb affects your ability to belay? If your 5.9 belayer sucks, it's probably because you aren't telling them what they are doing wrong, and how to do it better.
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kiwiprincess
Aug 9, 2011, 3:36 AM
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Some bad climbers are good belayers and some good climbers are terrible belayers. Awareness, reliability and pateience are the key traits to look for. The perfect belayer is the one that gives you dynamic belay to clear the ugly bulge, Says ok when you want one more go at your project despite being at that hanging belay for an hour already, sees the dangers (grounfall, dodgy placements, leg behind rope) acknowledges them calmly.
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hugepedro
Aug 9, 2011, 3:48 AM
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stoneguy wrote: I can't think of any 5.12 climbers that would want a 5.9 belaying for them. So what are we missing. Yes, everyone wants to go "up" but the Belay is also important. So, pay attention, don't drink beer, don't talk to the tourists.... What exactly do you expect? Part of the time the climber is out of sight.. usually we're on a GriGri. What do you want.. how can we be better? Pay out the rope on time, bring in the slack after a clip, maybe a "soft catch"..? What do you need...? T0, or possibly one of the dumbest posts I've ever seen on this site.
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qwert
Aug 9, 2011, 6:47 AM
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stoneguy wrote: I can't think of any 5.12 climbers that would want a 5.9 belaying for them. So what are we missing. Yes, everyone wants to go "up" but the Belay is also important. So, pay attention, don't drink beer, don't talk to the tourists.... What exactly do you expect? Part of the time the climber is out of sight.. usually we're on a GriGri. What do you want.. how can we be better? Pay out the rope on time, bring in the slack after a clip, maybe a "soft catch"..? What do you need...? I can't think of any forum post that would want a troll typing for them. So what are we missing. Yes, everyone wants to be funny but the idea is also important. So, pay attention, drink beer, fuck the tourists.... What exactly do you expect? Part of the time the poster is out of his mind.. usually we're on a CAPS LOCK. What do you want.. how can we be better? be original, bring in the fun after a post, maybe a "understandable post'"..? What do you need...? qwert
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mc
Aug 9, 2011, 6:56 AM
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There are people who have never climbed that I would trust to belay me after a short explanation. There are "experienced" climbers who make me nervous no matter how long they have climbed. My first partner drank beer and and smoked bowls the whole time and I never doubt he would catch me if I fell. He always had gave or took slack as appropriate...
(This post was edited by mc on Aug 9, 2011, 7:07 AM)
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j_ung
Aug 9, 2011, 12:30 PM
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stoneguy wrote: I can't think of any 5.12 climbers that would want a 5.9 belaying for them. So what are we missing. Yes, everyone wants to go "up" but the Belay is also important. So, pay attention, don't drink beer, don't talk to the tourists.... What exactly do you expect? Part of the time the climber is out of sight.. usually we're on a GriGri. What do you want.. how can we be better? Pay out the rope on time, bring in the slack after a clip, maybe a "soft catch"..? What do you need...? Well, I disagree with your first premise that climbing ability has any bearing on belaying. But I agree with your major premise that belaying is an art, and that, while it's a fundamental safety skill, it isn't necessarily easy to do it well. Personally, I think there's are intangible qualities to good belayers that are difficult, if not impossible, to teach. An innate understanding of the seriousness of the task is one. Reaction time is another, and the ability to know which reaction is appropriate is yet another. Perhaps all of these come with experience. I dunno. In no particular order, a truly good belayer... 1. Understands the seriousness of the task and pays attention 2. Knows what type of catch to administer and can do it spontaneously 3. Keeps an appropriate amount of slack or tension in the system 4. Is patient and obedient 5. Is utterly proficient with his or her chosen device 6. Communicates with the climber to the extent possible
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stoneguy
Aug 9, 2011, 12:55 PM
Post #9 of 47
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Sounds fair & clear. I have heard/read many complain about the risk on a difficult climb. What exactly are the different types of catches ? Obviously an overhang/invert wall hurts a lot less, but any hints on how to better protect our lead when you can't see them, which usually means they would hit a ledge or outcrop.
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stoneguy
Aug 9, 2011, 2:29 PM
Post #10 of 47
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Thanks and yes. My partner rarely complains about my belay unless I fail to pay out fast enough occasionally, but that's usually with height. Still, I feel there would be ways to improve. Yes, I try to be focused and attentive. Climbing 4 months & started seconding a month ago.
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MS1
Aug 9, 2011, 3:00 PM
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stoneguy wrote: Thanks and yes. My partner rarely complains about my belay unless I fail to pay out fast enough occasionally, but that's usually with height. Still, I feel there would be ways to improve. Yes, I try to be focused and attentive. Climbing 4 months & started seconding a month ago. Sounds like you need to practice feeding out slack so that you can do it quickly enough. No matter how tall your partner is, you should always be able to whip out enough rope for him to make his clips. If you regularly short-rope your leader, pretty soon that will be the end of that climbing partnership.
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granite_grrl
Aug 9, 2011, 3:58 PM
Post #13 of 47
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j_ung wrote: stoneguy wrote: I can't think of any 5.12 climbers that would want a 5.9 belaying for them. So what are we missing. Yes, everyone wants to go "up" but the Belay is also important. So, pay attention, don't drink beer, don't talk to the tourists.... What exactly do you expect? Part of the time the climber is out of sight.. usually we're on a GriGri. What do you want.. how can we be better? Pay out the rope on time, bring in the slack after a clip, maybe a "soft catch"..? What do you need...? Well, I disagree with your first premise that climbing ability has any bearing on belaying. But I agree with your major premise that belaying is an art, and that, while it's a fundamental safety skill, it isn't necessarily easy to do it well. Personally, I think there's are intangible qualities to good belayers that are difficult, if not impossible, to teach. An innate understanding of the seriousness of the task is one. Reaction time is another, and the ability to know which reaction is appropriate is yet another. Perhaps all of these come with experience. I dunno. In no particular order, a truly good belayer... 1. Understands the seriousness of the task and pays attention 2. Knows what type of catch to administer and can do it spontaneously 3. Keeps an appropriate amount of slack or tension in the system 4. Is patient and obedient 5. Is utterly proficient with his or her chosen device 6. Communicates with the climber to the extent possible I think that your list is the bare minimum that I would expect from a belayer. If I'm on a sport route that's really pushing my limits I want a belayer who can do all those things, but are good enough at rope management that it doesn't even feel like they're at the other end of the rope. Even better than that is a belayer that knows me well enough and gives me useful prompts and encouragement while I'm climbing. I'm lucky because my main climbing partner knows me better than anyone I know (my hubby), he also gives me the dreamiest soft catches out of anyone I know. Not that my other partners are giving hard catches, but they don't have the pillow like quality of the catches from my husband.
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hugepedro
Aug 9, 2011, 4:33 PM
Post #14 of 47
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j_ung wrote: stoneguy wrote: I can't think of any 5.12 climbers that would want a 5.9 belaying for them. So what are we missing. Yes, everyone wants to go "up" but the Belay is also important. So, pay attention, don't drink beer, don't talk to the tourists.... What exactly do you expect? Part of the time the climber is out of sight.. usually we're on a GriGri. What do you want.. how can we be better? Pay out the rope on time, bring in the slack after a clip, maybe a "soft catch"..? What do you need...? Well, I disagree with your first premise that climbing ability has any bearing on belaying. But I agree with your major premise that belaying is an art, and that, while it's a fundamental safety skill, it isn't necessarily easy to do it well. Personally, I think there's are intangible qualities to good belayers that are difficult, if not impossible, to teach. An innate understanding of the seriousness of the task is one. Reaction time is another, and the ability to know which reaction is appropriate is yet another. Perhaps all of these come with experience. I dunno. In no particular order, a truly good belayer... 1. Understands the seriousness of the task and pays attention 2. Knows what type of catch to administer and can do it spontaneously 3. Keeps an appropriate amount of slack or tension in the system 4. Is patient and obedient 5. Is utterly proficient with his or her chosen device 6. Communicates with the climber to the extent possible 7. Is competent with self-rescue techniques 8. Doesn't just assume that I know what I'm doing and have considered and prepared for all aspects of the route, uses their own judgement to analyze the situation and make suggestions 9. Makes sure they understand the plan before I leave the deck
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Mariofercol
Aug 9, 2011, 4:56 PM
Post #15 of 47
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I belay 5.13s in a good day
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bearbreeder
Aug 9, 2011, 5:11 PM
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catches me when i fall keeps me tight over a ledge gets ready to jump when the fall is clean doesnt short rope me ... but note that id rather be short roped than have someone have too much slack in the system over a ledge or off the ground, which is hard to tell when he cant see you on a long multi ... belaying or easier lower angle terrain IMO is much more demanding than higher angle "harder" climbs knows what to do if i eff up and get injured and knows what to do on multi thats about it .. there are other things ... but those are the big ones oh and being a hawt chick helps
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JoeHamilton
Aug 9, 2011, 5:32 PM
Post #17 of 47
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I don't have as much experience as a lot of you. But, just f-ing catch me if I fall.
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JoeHamilton
Aug 9, 2011, 5:33 PM
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Oh and teach me the rest, so I can offer you what's best for you.
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happiegrrrl
Aug 9, 2011, 11:33 PM
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j_ung wrote: In no particular order, a truly good belayer... 1. Understands the seriousness of the task and pays attention 2. Knows what type of catch to administer and can do it spontaneously 3. Keeps an appropriate amount of slack or tension in the system 4. Is patient and obedient 5. Is utterly proficient with his or her chosen device 6. Communicates with the climber to the extent possible add "Is ready to climb when the leader calls "On belay" when doing multipitch(although I suppose that is more of a "art of seconding" quality. I'm not sure I would choose "obedient" as a term though. A good belayer has their partner's back, and maybe there are times not to be so submissive(thinking of a time I had a leader who was sketching out and wanting to "go" instead of putting in a piece; which would be the last he could get for several feet, and he was just passing the zone of 'fall and probably be okay' into 'fall and you will probably get hurt' and I refused slack until he placed. The infamous drkodos once said(or yelled, actually) "The belayer's job is to catch the fall. Anything more is a perk!" Then "get off the rope! Get off the rope or I'm lowerin' ya to the ground!!!111!"
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dagibbs
Aug 10, 2011, 1:51 AM
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happiegrrrl wrote: add "Is ready to climb when the leader calls "On belay" when doing multipitch(although I suppose that is more of a "art of seconding" quality. Really? Nope. As a general rule, I'm not taking down my anchor until I'm on belay.
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dan2see
Aug 10, 2011, 2:58 AM
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On sport climbs with groups, generally all the guys are good. But sometimes a guy is chatting the girls, or telling his stories, or watching the birds across the river. It's great to have standards of behaviour and rules of conduct, but frankly my feeling is, while I'm watching my belayer, I'm not climbing. And climbers come from anywhere. So I try to just focus on the climb. I ask one thing only: that my belayer always has one hand on the tail of the belay. Beyond that, if I really don't like what's going on down there, I'll find a different guy to belay me.
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villageidiot
Aug 10, 2011, 4:21 AM
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When projecting a good belayer: Never short ropes Allows the climber to fall enough such that he does not swing hard into the wall, but not enough that getting back on route requires a lot of work Can lock off and hold a climber exactly where he or she wants to be Can both lower the climber and help him move up on a route Knows how to boink Can actually boink Keeps the rope under enough tension to keep large loops of slack from forming between bolts and getting in the way If heavier than the climber, knows when to jump to soften the fall Has useful beta, or knows when not to say anything Can keep an eye on the climbers stuff, kid, dog, the weather, and make sure Bob Scarpelli is not approaching Is still up for belaying one last burn is tired, sore, bored, pissed off, or otherwise ready to call it a day
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j_ung
Aug 10, 2011, 11:34 AM
Post #23 of 47
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hugepedro wrote: j_ung wrote: stoneguy wrote: I can't think of any 5.12 climbers that would want a 5.9 belaying for them. So what are we missing. Yes, everyone wants to go "up" but the Belay is also important. So, pay attention, don't drink beer, don't talk to the tourists.... What exactly do you expect? Part of the time the climber is out of sight.. usually we're on a GriGri. What do you want.. how can we be better? Pay out the rope on time, bring in the slack after a clip, maybe a "soft catch"..? What do you need...? Well, I disagree with your first premise that climbing ability has any bearing on belaying. But I agree with your major premise that belaying is an art, and that, while it's a fundamental safety skill, it isn't necessarily easy to do it well. Personally, I think there's are intangible qualities to good belayers that are difficult, if not impossible, to teach. An innate understanding of the seriousness of the task is one. Reaction time is another, and the ability to know which reaction is appropriate is yet another. Perhaps all of these come with experience. I dunno. In no particular order, a truly good belayer... 1. Understands the seriousness of the task and pays attention 2. Knows what type of catch to administer and can do it spontaneously 3. Keeps an appropriate amount of slack or tension in the system 4. Is patient and obedient 5. Is utterly proficient with his or her chosen device 6. Communicates with the climber to the extent possible 7. Is competent with self-rescue techniques 8. Doesn't just assume that I know what I'm doing and have considered and prepared for all aspects of the route, uses their own judgement to analyze the situation and make suggestions 9. Makes sure they understand the plan before I leave the deck Your 8 and 9 are covered in my list, I think. I tried to keep it pretty general. Good number 7.
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j_ung
Aug 10, 2011, 11:36 AM
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granite_grrl wrote: j_ung wrote: stoneguy wrote: I can't think of any 5.12 climbers that would want a 5.9 belaying for them. So what are we missing. Yes, everyone wants to go "up" but the Belay is also important. So, pay attention, don't drink beer, don't talk to the tourists.... What exactly do you expect? Part of the time the climber is out of sight.. usually we're on a GriGri. What do you want.. how can we be better? Pay out the rope on time, bring in the slack after a clip, maybe a "soft catch"..? What do you need...? Well, I disagree with your first premise that climbing ability has any bearing on belaying. But I agree with your major premise that belaying is an art, and that, while it's a fundamental safety skill, it isn't necessarily easy to do it well. Personally, I think there's are intangible qualities to good belayers that are difficult, if not impossible, to teach. An innate understanding of the seriousness of the task is one. Reaction time is another, and the ability to know which reaction is appropriate is yet another. Perhaps all of these come with experience. I dunno. In no particular order, a truly good belayer... 1. Understands the seriousness of the task and pays attention 2. Knows what type of catch to administer and can do it spontaneously 3. Keeps an appropriate amount of slack or tension in the system 4. Is patient and obedient 5. Is utterly proficient with his or her chosen device 6. Communicates with the climber to the extent possible I think that your list is the bare minimum that I would expect from a belayer. If I'm on a sport route that's really pushing my limits I want a belayer who can do all those things, but are good enough at rope management that it doesn't even feel like they're at the other end of the rope. Even better than that is a belayer that knows me well enough and gives me useful prompts and encouragement while I'm climbing. I'm lucky because my main climbing partner knows me better than anyone I know (my hubby), he also gives me the dreamiest soft catches out of anyone I know. Not that my other partners are giving hard catches, but they don't have the pillow like quality of the catches from my husband. I think those are covered in my numbers 3 and 6, but yeah, the specifics sure help, IMO.
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j_ung
Aug 10, 2011, 11:42 AM
Post #25 of 47
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happiegrrrl wrote: I'm not sure I would choose "obedient" as a term though. A good belayer has their partner's back, and maybe there are times not to be so submissive(thinking of a time I had a leader who was sketching out and wanting to "go" instead of putting in a piece; which would be the last he could get for several feet, and he was just passing the zone of 'fall and probably be okay' into 'fall and you will probably get hurt' and I refused slack until he placed. The infamous drkodos once said(or yelled, actually) "The belayer's job is to catch the fall. Anything more is a perk!" Then "get off the rope! Get off the rope or I'm lowerin' ya to the ground!!!111!" If you refused me slack, I'd carpet F bomb you. BUT, I suppose I can imagine doing that in one or two situations, such as when climbing with an inexperienced leader who obviously didn't realize what he or she was about to do. Actually, even then, I don't think I'd refuse slack. I'd advise and then continue the belay. RD is a whole other ball of wax. It's almost as though some of the norms of climbing don't apply to him... and somehow it all works really well. The few times I climbed with him, I was certainly never tentative about going above my gear. He's a top notch partner.
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