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jcd82
Oct 4, 2011, 1:44 AM
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I read a little on this topic, but couldn't seem to get a straight answer. I'm focused on getting into ice this winter and will eventually need tools for both basic snow/mountaineering and vertical ice; however I'm not exactly in the financial position to buy three axes. Is it possible to get one tool that does well in alpine ice (possibly the Petzl Quark/Aztar) and another that could be useful in steep snow (Petzl Aztarex/other) ? Would it be difficult to climb on waterfall ice with two different tools, especially with one being less suited for steep climbing?
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Rudmin
Oct 4, 2011, 2:24 AM
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Although I don't own either, I have been assured by those that do, that either the Petzl Quarks or BD Vipers will get you by on just about anything. They may not be the best on pure water ice and they may not be the best on steep snow, but they will be good enough and never let you down on either. Grivel probably has something equivalent as well.
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juho.risku
Oct 4, 2011, 7:00 AM
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While I prefer two technical tools (technical like Grivel Matrix Tech, but not super technical like BD Fusion) I know that some serious climbers use exactly the kind of setup you described, i.e. one technical and one straight shafted axe with technical blade... I would stick with two technical tools anyways.
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shoo
Oct 4, 2011, 7:42 AM
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It is very dependant on the actual climbing you plan to do. Straight shaft mountaineering tools will be miserable on waterfall ice. However, tools that are made for technical ice don't typically plunge or self arrest easily, making them far less useful on snowy terrain.
Your best bet is to borrow and rent as much as you can until you figure out what works for you. While there are lots of hardy folks using odd combinations, you are best off using gear the way it is intended while you are learning the basics.
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shoo
Oct 4, 2011, 10:01 AM
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For what it's worth, if I could only buy one pair of tools for vertical ice and technical mountaineering, I were err on the side of a moderately technical tool, probably the Petzl Quarks.
If I were going to do any kind of glacial travel as well as technical ice, I would purchase a more classic mountaineering tool and a pair of very technical tools. If cost is an issue, there are a few technical tools out there that are shockingly cheap for their quality (BD reactors come to mind, but I know grivel makes some very high value ones as well).
If I am me (which I am) and rarely do anything glacial or alpiney except for the approach to vertical ice, a pair of technical ice tools it is!
As with everything else in gear, try before you buy. Personal touch is very important in ice tools. They are expensive; make sure you are going to love them.
Also, if I were to agonize over one gear decision in your case, it would probably be boots, not tools.
(This post was edited by shoo on Oct 5, 2011, 1:31 PM)
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sandstone
Oct 4, 2011, 2:40 PM
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jcd82 wrote: ... I'm focused on getting into ice this winter and will eventually need tools for both basic snow/mountaineering and vertical ice; however I'm not exactly in the financial position to buy three axes...
If ice is your first goal, then get a pair of technical ice tools first, and delay getting a mountaineering axe.
Later, when you can afford it, get a traditional long (~70cm) straight shafted axe for your snow climbing & mountaineering.
In reply to: Is it possible to get one tool that does well in alpine ice (possibly the Petzl Quark/Aztar) and another that could be useful in steep snow (Petzl Aztarex/other) ? Would it be difficult to climb on waterfall ice with two different tools, especially with one being less suited for steep climbing?
Financially, I think you are going to shoot yourself in the foot with this compromise approach. For ice climbing, I think you will end up replacing these compromise tools with ones that climb better. For general purpose snow climbing & mountaineering I think you will end up with a long traditional axe.
Is it possible to do what you are proposing? Sure it is. Way back when, I did my first ice climbing with a 70cm axe, and an old Chouinard alpine hammer. It was sort of the standard, but pretty much no one does that any more, and for good reason.
If you are serious about this, and you want to maximize your investment, it doesn't make sense to spend money on compromises that will require more money to fix.
Buying used tools is a good way to get started. In general, there's nothing wrong with them, other than some cosmetic scratches. You may have to buy new picks for them, but you should be carrying spare picks anyway. Put on some new picks, and used tools will climb like new. Keep the beat up old picks for spares (or for when you want to start playing on some mixed climbs).
As for which technical tools to get, try to climb on as many different types as you can before you buy, to figure out what feels good to you. I like the Vipers. I've had both generations of the Viper design, and they just feel good to me. They work well with my swing, and they have been fine on the occasional pitch of steep snow I've encountered. The first generation design had a few shortcomings, but BD fixed those in the second generation. The Vipers work well for leashless climbing, and if you want leashes the BD leash system is the best out there IMO. The only beef I have with the Vipers is that their picks are a bit difficult to remove from a deep placement in hard ice, however that is easily resolved by de-tuning the first few teeth of the pick.
For choosing a traditional mountaineering axe, make sure you consider the weight of the tool in your selection. Mountaineering approaches and routes can be long. You can probably borrow an axe for your first few mountaineering trips.
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tolman_paul
Oct 4, 2011, 4:54 PM
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Another vote for modern dedicated ice tools for climbing waterfalls.
The challenge with ice climbing with a traditional mountaineering axe is you're going to be swinging it alot more to get a secured placement. That tires you out, and then your form goes out. When your form goes out with a straightshaft tool you smash your knuckles against the ice, which is no fun and takes awhile for the bruising to go away.
I'll give another vote for the 2nd gen vipers. I'd started ice climbing with my partners old X-15 straight shaft tools, then finally splurged on a pair of vipers. The difference was amazing.
I'd much rather live with the limitations of a viper on a mountaineering route than live with the limitations of a mountaineering axe on an ice climb.
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hugepedro
Oct 4, 2011, 5:28 PM
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For quite a few years the Grivel Jorasses was my primary mountaineering/glacier axe (the first version, version 2.0 on the link).
http://www.grivel.com/..._axes/65-jorasses_20
If I knew things were going to get steeper I'd bring a 2nd tool and I was good to go, as long as it was no more than AI/WI3 or very very short sections of AI/WI4. Think long alpine routes with typically snow/glacier travel involved on the approach. So tool flexibility is possible, for some jobs.
But I used this combo because that was the best 2-tool setup for me for that particular job, and I didn't want to carry 3 axes.
As others have said, if your focus initially is ice climbing, not mountaineering, then get a pair of technical tools. You can always buy a mountaineering axe later. They only cost $80. Skip a few cheeseburgers and you're there.
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eric_k
Oct 5, 2011, 6:44 PM
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My vote is to get a pair of the new Petzl Quarks. I have a pair and they spectacular. I have used them on both pure water ice as well as long mountain routes. I loved having them when I climbed Liberty Ridge of Rainier. I did the climb in winter like conditions, the tools performed very well in deep snow (plunges well even with the pinky rest), and worked perfectly while climbing the Ice pitches.
If you realy want to use two separate tools, I would recommend one Technical tool (Quark, Viper) and a Petzl Sum'tec. I haven't tried it but the Sum'tec seams like it would climb ice reasonably well. and you can slid the pinky rest out of the way so the tool performs like a traditional ice axe.
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sandstone
Oct 5, 2011, 9:19 PM
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eric_k wrote: ... Petzl Quarks... loved having them when I climbed Liberty Ridge of Rainier. I did the climb in winter like conditions...
Same here, I did LR with technical tools, in winter like conditions (very early spring). The difference is I think I screwed up. If I did it again I would carry my 70cm traditional axe, and a lightweight second tool for only the steepest bits of ice. That's not because I am a badass (I'm not even close), it's just because on the majority of that route/mountain I really missed having my 70 and climbing in traditional single axe technique. Different strokes...
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cclarke
Oct 6, 2011, 12:19 AM
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I would get the best technical ice tools that you can afford. I prefer the Nomics because of the grip size and the balance but the BD and other offerings are also good and may fit your hand better. It's kind of personal preference once you get into the leashless tools.
I have never wished for a more "alpine" or general mountaineering tool while using the Nomics. While using less technical tools, I have wished for something better for steep ice.
Last weekend doing a new ice route in Bolivia, two out of three of us had modern leashless tools. One out of the three of us was complaining pretty loudly that he hadn't brought his good tools on the overhanging pitch on the route. Nobody complained about their tools on the hundreds of meters of snow climbing at the bottom and top of the route.
Based on your questions about Seneca, I assume you are in the mid-Atlantic area and will look to New England for most of your ice climbing in the near future. In that area, you will appreciate the modern tools.
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dr_feelgood
Oct 6, 2011, 1:49 AM
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cclarke wrote: I would get the best technical ice tools that you can afford. I prefer the Nomics because of the grip size and the balance but the BD and other offerings are also good and may fit your hand better. It's kind of personal preference once you get into the leashless tools. I have never wished for a more "alpine" or general mountaineering tool while using the Nomics. While using less technical tools, I have wished for something better for steep ice. Last weekend doing a new ice route in Bolivia, two out of three of us had modern leashless tools. One out of the three of us was complaining pretty loudly that he hadn't brought his good tools on the overhanging pitch on the route. Nobody complained about their tools on the hundreds of meters of snow climbing at the bottom and top of the route. Based on your questions about Seneca, I assume you are in the mid-Atlantic area and will look to New England for most of your ice climbing in the near future. In that area, you will appreciate the modern tools.
buy nice or buy twice
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westhegimp
Nov 6, 2011, 11:34 PM
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Buy the technical ice tools of your dreams. Then borrow a mountain axe from someone when you need one. :)
Wes
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