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j_ung
Feb 1, 2012, 9:04 PM
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patto wrote: Is there really anything to suggest that the child is at much more risk that driving in an older model car or sitting in a seat back of a bicycle?? Rockclimbing is NOT dangerous if done sensibly. Cars are NOT dangerous if done sensibly. Remember it is simply one small error on a high speed highway and you are dead. So what makes this so much different?
I agree. The only thing amiss in that to me is the lack of a helmet on the kid. I took my 3-year old niece rappelling. She had a fine time.
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redlude97
Feb 1, 2012, 10:05 PM
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patto wrote: Is there really anything to suggest that the child is at much more risk that driving in an older model car or sitting in a seat back of a bicycle?? Rockclimbing is NOT dangerous if done sensibly. Cars are NOT dangerous if done sensibly. Remember it is simply one small error on a high speed highway and you are dead. So what makes this so much different?
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shimanilami
Feb 1, 2012, 10:49 PM
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If someone has to wear the kid on his back, I'd think the belayer would be the better choice.
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onceahardman
Feb 1, 2012, 11:29 PM
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Well written, Lena. I have one point I'd like to bring up, though.
When I started my kids out skiing (at age 3 for all of them), the weight of a ski helmet relative to the strength of the neck musculature of a toddler is something i worried about. The extra mass on a kid's head needs to be decelerated in a fall, and often the kid's muscles are just not equal to the task, potentially resulting in increased risk of whiplash or worse.
I don't like the idea of really little kids going up on a rope at all, and I question whether a helmet adds or subtracts from the danger. A little easy bouldering with a tight spotter is fine.
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Gmburns2000
Feb 1, 2012, 11:47 PM
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It's a sweet looking crag anyway
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Player
Feb 2, 2012, 8:17 AM
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shimanilami wrote: If someone has to wear the kid on his back, I'd think the belayer would be the better choice.
Not at a crag prone to rock breakage and with no helmet.
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Gmburns2000
Feb 2, 2012, 11:49 AM
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jt512 wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: It's a sweet looking crag anyway Yep. World-class 5.7 beach toproping. Right up there with Point Dume.
Both are fine with me. Maybe I'd get sick of them after a while, but they both seem to be in pretty sweet locations (ok, LA notwithstanding).
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markc
Feb 2, 2012, 2:52 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: jt512 wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: It's a sweet looking crag anyway Yep. World-class 5.7 beach toproping. Right up there with Point Dume. Both are fine with me. Maybe I'd get sick of them after a while, but they both seem to be in pretty sweet locations (ok, LA notwithstanding).
I'm with Burns on this one. A day at the beach with some climbing thrown in? I don't know that I could find much to complain about. It may not be for SERIOUS CLIMBERS, but I could live with that.
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hyhuu
Feb 2, 2012, 4:00 PM
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patto wrote: Is there really anything to suggest that the child is at much more risk that driving in an older model car or sitting in a seat back of a bicycle?? Rockclimbing is NOT dangerous if done sensibly. Cars are NOT dangerous if done sensibly. Remember it is simply one small error on a high speed highway and you are dead. So what makes this so much different?
The difference for me is one is by neccesity and the other is just recreation. I don't ever put my kids in a car just for kick.
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akornylak
Feb 4, 2012, 12:51 AM
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I take exception to this. She is not climbing, she is on a top rope.
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cliffmama
Feb 4, 2012, 5:10 AM
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Lena has brought up many of the same issues that I thought about when I read the article. I won't repeat myself here, but I talked about the various risks in my blog at http://cliffmama.com/...toddler-controversy/ plus there's some excellent and thoughtful comments people posted on my blog.
One thing that no one seemed to mention is while she says there's no chance of rock fall, someone was above her to take that photo, so yes, there was the chance of dropping gear or dislodging a rock.
Plus she's overconfident. Nothing is 100% safe, and a little practical fear and caution would do her good. She has only been climbing a little more than a year and is already boasting about ideas of writing a book about where to go climbing with kids. She's a bit too confident and too enthusiastic to take a step back and have the patience to learn more about her new found passion before she puts herself out there as a spokesperson.
(This post was edited by cliffmama on Feb 4, 2012, 5:11 AM)
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rcmoose
Feb 4, 2012, 9:49 PM
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I am the father of 19y/o & 26y/o daughters.
If the mother in this post doesn't understand what is wrong with climbing with her daughter on her back, don't bother trying to explain it to her.
This is natural selection at work.
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JasonsDrivingForce
Feb 6, 2012, 1:36 AM
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This is the same thing as parents letting their kids ride around in the car without a seat belt. Or parents that leave loaded guns lying around the house. Or parents that leave their 5 year old home alone to look after their younger siblings.
The child didn't get hurt this time but if she continues to climb like this something will eventually happen. When it does happen I won't have any sympathy for her. I will feel sorry for the child that was put into a dangerous situation that she couldn't comprehend.
Hopefully, the lady sees these posts and rethinks what she is doing. It would be a lot safer if she just put the kid in a full body harness(with a helmet) and drug her up the cliff. At least then the kid could learn to climb on her own.
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sp115
Feb 6, 2012, 2:02 AM
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akornylak wrote: I take exception to this. She is not climbing, she is on a top rope.
What do you take exception to in a situation where a toddler is brought up the side of a cliff in a device that looks like it could fall out of?
(This post was edited by sp115 on Feb 6, 2012, 2:04 AM)
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Rkenney
Feb 10, 2012, 5:15 PM
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Climbing is a dangerous activity. This toddler does not yet understand the risk that is being taken and is not even actively climbing.
I climb, not riding on someone's back, because the excitement outweighs the risk in my opinion. However, this toddler is not making this decision for herself. While I do believe that riding in a car can be more dangerous than certain climbs, there is a social necessity to drive/ride in a car.
My main problem with this scenario is that the toddler can not make this decision for herself and is therefore being put at undue risk without the potential for the rewarding experience.
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j_ung
Feb 10, 2012, 7:51 PM
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Rkenney wrote: Climbing is a dangerous activity. This toddler does not yet understand the risk that is being taken and is not even actively climbing. I climb, not riding on someone's back, because the excitement outweighs the risk in my opinion. However, this toddler is not making this decision for herself. While I do believe that riding in a car can be more dangerous than certain climbs, there is a social necessity to drive/ride in a car. My main problem with this scenario is that the toddler can not make this decision for herself and is therefore being put at undue risk without the potential for the rewarding experience.
To what age do we need to extend that logic?
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j_ung
Feb 10, 2012, 7:53 PM
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I'm just going to say one thing, and then I'm out. In a world where many mothers smoke while pregnant, birth drug-addicted babies and take part in all sorts of activities that are 100% definitely bad for their children, is this really all that bad?
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lena_chita
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Feb 10, 2012, 8:18 PM
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j_ung wrote: I'm just going to say one thing, and then I'm out. In a world where many mothers smoke while pregnant, birth drug-addicted babies and take part in all sorts of activities that are 100% definitely bad for their children, is this really all that bad?
No. But it is dumb and unnecessary.
Would you jump out of the plane with L. in a Snugli carrier? Why not? It is pretty safe, and I bet he would have a good time...
My take on the situation is that this woman did something dumb, because she didn't think it though, and didn't come up with a better plan of how to have a kid and go climbing, too. And now she is attempting to justify it by bullshit talk about exposing your child to things you love, and shared experiences, and the like.
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j_ung
Feb 10, 2012, 8:23 PM
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lena_chita wrote: j_ung wrote: I'm just going to say one thing, and then I'm out. In a world where many mothers smoke while pregnant, birth drug-addicted babies and take part in all sorts of activities that are 100% definitely bad for their children, is this really all that bad? No. But it is dumb and unnecessary. Would you jump out of the plane with L. in a Snugli carrier? Why not? It is pretty safe, and I bet he would have a good time... My take on the situation is that this woman did something dumb, because she didn't think it though, and didn't come up with a better plan of how to have a kid and go climbing, too. And now she is attempting to justify it by bullshit talk about exposing your child to things you love, and shared experiences, and the like.
No, and I also wouldn't climb with him in an infant carrier. I just don't think it's bad enough to warrant the ridiculous amount attention it's getting all over the climbing web. Frankly, I'm more disgusted that there are so many people ready judge something that isn't their business and obviously ended up AOK in the end.
I keep wanting to put my son in the oven with a bunch of vegetables and take pics, but Wendy's afraid we'll get a visit from CPS. Even though I'm reasonably certain I could later produce a live and uncooked Lincoln, she's probably right. It's probably not worth the potential hassle. I have little doubt that there would be no shortage of people ready tell me I'm a terrible person. Hell, just for posting that, somebody here will probably chime in.
(This post was edited by j_ung on Feb 10, 2012, 8:27 PM)
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bearbreeder
Feb 10, 2012, 8:37 PM
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theres a difference between doing something stupid and getting away with it ... and trying to justify that its perfectly fine ... and end up doing it over and over again
and doing it, realizing its dumb, and not doing it again
ive stopped climbing with some people who try to make excuses about how its all right because no one got hurt ... and then do the same thing over and over again ...
the natural instinct of some people is simply deny or ignore anything they do wrong ... i pointed out quietly to someone who was belaying that his belay device was upside down ... he ignored me and kept hooking up that way, likely because he didnt want his partner to realize he didnt know what he was doing ...
i tend to avoid those people in climbing and in life ....
(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Feb 10, 2012, 8:38 PM)
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lena_chita
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Feb 10, 2012, 8:38 PM
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j_ung wrote: lena_chita wrote: j_ung wrote: I'm just going to say one thing, and then I'm out. In a world where many mothers smoke while pregnant, birth drug-addicted babies and take part in all sorts of activities that are 100% definitely bad for their children, is this really all that bad? No. But it is dumb and unnecessary. Would you jump out of the plane with L. in a Snugli carrier? Why not? It is pretty safe, and I bet he would have a good time... My take on the situation is that this woman did something dumb, because she didn't think it though, and didn't come up with a better plan of how to have a kid and go climbing, too. And now she is attempting to justify it by bullshit talk about exposing your child to things you love, and shared experiences, and the like. No, and I also wouldn't climb with him in an infant carrier. I just don't think it's bad enough to warrant the ridiculous amount attention it's getting all over the climbing web. Frankly, I'm more disgusted that there are so many people ready judge something that isn't their business and obviously ended up AOK in the end.
When someone inexperienced does something that ended O.K., but had a potential not to, and then instead of saying, oh, yeah, I see now, that was not the best thing to do, they defend their actions, it gets people riled up.
It is not my business when some gumby ties in to a swinging/traversing/overhanging TR without directionals and a potential to break an ankle. But to say that just because they didn't fall and break their ankle that time, they should continue to do so, would be silly. And if they defend their actions instead of saying, yeah, O.K., maybe it wasn't the smartest thing to do, I will not think that it is O.K.
That quote from the woman, saying that she was wearing a helmet " just out of habit" but didn't think of how it would look, doesn't make me feel, oh, O.K. then, she is smart and knows what she is doing. If anything, it points at other things she is not thinking.
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sp115
Feb 10, 2012, 8:39 PM
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j_ung wrote: lena_chita wrote: j_ung wrote: I'm just going to say one thing, and then I'm out. In a world where many mothers smoke while pregnant, birth drug-addicted babies and take part in all sorts of activities that are 100% definitely bad for their children, is this really all that bad? No. But it is dumb and unnecessary. Would you jump out of the plane with L. in a Snugli carrier? Why not? It is pretty safe, and I bet he would have a good time... My take on the situation is that this woman did something dumb, because she didn't think it though, and didn't come up with a better plan of how to have a kid and go climbing, too. And now she is attempting to justify it by bullshit talk about exposing your child to things you love, and shared experiences, and the like. No, and I also wouldn't climb with him in an infant carrier. I just don't think it's bad enough to warrant the ridiculous amount attention it's getting all over the climbing web. Frankly, I'm more disgusted that there are so many people ready judge something that isn't their business and obviously ended up AOK in the end. I keep wanting to put my son in the oven with a bunch of vegetables and take pics, but Wendy's afraid we'll get a visit from CPS. Even though I'm reasonably certain I could later produce a live and uncooked Lincoln, she's probably right. It's probably not worth the potential hassle. I have little doubt that there would be no shortage of people ready tell me I'm a terrible person. Hell, just for posting that, somebody here will probably chime in.
"Your search for posts made by j_ung returned 16490 (judgment free) results"
(This post was edited by sp115 on Feb 10, 2012, 8:41 PM)
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j_ung
Feb 10, 2012, 8:47 PM
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sp115 wrote: j_ung wrote: lena_chita wrote: j_ung wrote: I'm just going to say one thing, and then I'm out. In a world where many mothers smoke while pregnant, birth drug-addicted babies and take part in all sorts of activities that are 100% definitely bad for their children, is this really all that bad? No. But it is dumb and unnecessary. Would you jump out of the plane with L. in a Snugli carrier? Why not? It is pretty safe, and I bet he would have a good time... My take on the situation is that this woman did something dumb, because she didn't think it though, and didn't come up with a better plan of how to have a kid and go climbing, too. And now she is attempting to justify it by bullshit talk about exposing your child to things you love, and shared experiences, and the like. No, and I also wouldn't climb with him in an infant carrier. I just don't think it's bad enough to warrant the ridiculous amount attention it's getting all over the climbing web. Frankly, I'm more disgusted that there are so many people ready judge something that isn't their business and obviously ended up AOK in the end. I keep wanting to put my son in the oven with a bunch of vegetables and take pics, but Wendy's afraid we'll get a visit from CPS. Even though I'm reasonably certain I could later produce a live and uncooked Lincoln, she's probably right. It's probably not worth the potential hassle. I have little doubt that there would be no shortage of people ready tell me I'm a terrible person. Hell, just for posting that, somebody here will probably chime in. (judgment free) results"
 Point taken. And well made.
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markc
Feb 10, 2012, 9:52 PM
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j_ung wrote: Rkenney wrote: Climbing is a dangerous activity. This toddler does not yet understand the risk that is being taken and is not even actively climbing. I climb, not riding on someone's back, because the excitement outweighs the risk in my opinion. However, this toddler is not making this decision for herself. While I do believe that riding in a car can be more dangerous than certain climbs, there is a social necessity to drive/ride in a car. My main problem with this scenario is that the toddler can not make this decision for herself and is therefore being put at undue risk without the potential for the rewarding experience. To what age do we need to extend that logic?
That's a fair question. My son is 5, and he's gone climbing on several occasions. The first time was just before his third birthday, and he's just as incapable of making an informed decision now as he was then.
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