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Rudmin
Aug 8, 2012, 6:48 PM
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ninepointeight wrote: I was climbing with a much more experienced partner recently and I cloved into the anchor. He said that I should always cinch the knot down right away or it could slip. I did so to appease the leaders ego but it sounds like nonsense to me. Logic and experience tell me that obviously a loose clove will slip a foot or so as the knot tightens and then slip less and less with greater and greater force on an exponential curve until the rope breaks. If that weren't true people wouldn't aid solo on it, right? I see it repeated here... http://climbing.about.com/...tch-For-Climbing.htm
yeah, or the loose rope snags the gate as it tightens and unclips itself, or ends up in some other strange configuration that doesn't stop. Why do you want to have an extra foot of slack anyways?
edit: added OP quote so it makes sense
(This post was edited by Rudmin on Aug 13, 2012, 5:37 PM)
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healyje
Aug 8, 2012, 7:20 PM
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By and large you want to 'finish' or 'dress' knots when you create one paying some attention to details like you mention with the load strand. And finishing the knot doesn't necessarily mean cinching it all the way down either, but with cloves, you definitely don't want it in a completely uncinched configuration either, but sufficiently cinched to keep its form and not loosen further with the potential for what is being pointed out as undesirable outcomes.
Perhaps 'snug' is a better word in this instance than 'cinch'.
(This post was edited by healyje on Aug 9, 2012, 6:24 PM)
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bearbreeder
Aug 8, 2012, 7:58 PM
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ninepointeight wrote: I did so to appease the leaders ego but it sounds like nonsense to me.
maybe you should find a new partner ... the much more experienced person may not be absolutely correct, or may have outdated information ... but he has valid concerns if he believes that a knot should be cinched properly, which in general they should be
i see absolutely no purpose in leaving a clove hitch loose on a belay ... there are other ways to vary the length of yr tie in if you so desire
perhaps you should have a private word before going online about a much more experienced partner and their egos over what sounds like a safety concern ...
the leader is the one putting themselves at risk ... if they want you to wear a chicken suit and make clucking noises, do so or dont climb with them ... theyre the ones taking the fall should shiet go wrong
(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Aug 8, 2012, 7:59 PM)
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jeepnphreak
Aug 8, 2012, 9:05 PM
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I get what you are thinking by wanting to have the most flexability at the belay station. But most people are going to tell you that dressing or finishing the knot is the prefered solution. Given' that the lead is going to be taking the possible fall and he wants a finished knot is reason enough.
IMHO not finished the clove is sloppy and not nessary. is you want or need to adjust you teather faster than a clove you can use a PAS or other similar device.
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rsd212
Aug 8, 2012, 9:18 PM
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Deleted? Really? Someone want to fill us in on what the OP didn't want us to see?
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Rudmin
Aug 8, 2012, 9:30 PM
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He said that the clove hitch is a mythical knot that doesn't actually exist.
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marc801
Aug 8, 2012, 11:29 PM
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rsd212 wrote: Deleted? Really? Someone want to fill us in on what the OP didn't want us to see?
It appears that the OP had a serious misconception about how a clove hitch works and is now embarrassed by it. Perhaps the OP should look up the definition of 'hubris'.
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bearbreeder
Aug 9, 2012, 1:17 AM
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there is nothing wrong with asking about a clove hitch in a beginner forum ... or whether it should be loosey goosey, etc ...
what i did find issue with is a new climber telling a person much more experienced than him how to set up a belay which that experienced climber will lead from ... and going online when his feelings are hurt claiming that the experienced climber is telling him to tighten up his clove so his ego can be "appeased" ..
its those kind of newbies that give newbies a bad name ... an experienced climber took a newbie out, tried to teach him something about safety, the newbie gets all butthurt and goes online sprouting off about that climbers ego ...
i mean have the decency to respect those who took the time to teach you something ... they may not always be right and are sometimes wrong ... but dont go on the intrawebs about "egos"
leggo my eggo 
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rgold
Aug 9, 2012, 1:50 AM
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Bearbreeder is right on.
As for clove hitches, they are dangerous if left loose. Tightening them is not some thing you might or might not do, it is essential. It doesn't have anything to do with anyone's ego.
Using clove hitches correctly makes it possible to fine-tune your belay position down to the centimeter and then tighten the knot. You don't need them loose to properly position the belayer.
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ninepointeight
Aug 9, 2012, 3:08 AM
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I lead the pitch.
Clove wasn't part of the anchor. It was my personal safety.
Not butthurt at all. I didn't ask the partner at the time and forgot about it until now.
Post was not meant to imply that anonymous partner had an ego issue. Ego is a general term. Everyone has one. I deleted it cause it apparantly could be misunderstood. (another forum I'm on OP can delete the thread.). First few replies were helpful.
My reason for posting was to see if a myth was being repeated to me or if there was something I was missing.
Thanks
(This post was edited by ninepointeight on Aug 9, 2012, 3:12 AM)
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marc801
Aug 9, 2012, 2:03 PM
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ninepointeight wrote: I lead the pitch. Clove wasn't part of the anchor. It was my personal safety. Not butthurt at all. I didn't ask the partner at the time and forgot about it until now. Post was not meant to imply that anonymous partner had an ego issue. Ego is a general term. Everyone has one. I deleted it cause it apparantly could be misunderstood. (another forum I'm on OP can delete the thread.). First few replies were helpful. My reason for posting was to see if a myth was being repeated to me or if there was something I was missing. Thanks
You're a beginner - sack up and get used to being wrong and embarrassed from time to time. Any responses aren't meant to ridicule, but to keep you and your partners alive. That is unless you (or anyone else) starts to display the n00b trait of being aggressively ignorant.
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ninepointeight
Aug 9, 2012, 2:11 PM
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breeder's post gave me the impression that partner might be offended by the question. Rereading it with that in mind, I agreed, though it wasn't how it was meant.
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notapplicable
Aug 9, 2012, 5:03 PM
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Here is the original post and a link to the google cache page where it can be found - http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/...vcuqMPOF1w&pbx=1
ninepointeight wrote: I was climbing with a much more experienced partner recently and I cloved into the anchor. He said that I should always cinch the knot down right away or it could slip. I did so to appease the leaders ego but it sounds like nonsense to me. Logic and experience tell me that obviously a loose clove will slip a foot or so as the knot tightens and then slip less and less with greater and greater force on an exponential curve until the rope breaks. If that weren't true people wouldn't aid solo on it, right? I see it repeated here... http://climbing.about.com/...tch-For-Climbing.htm
And the link you (ninepointeight) provided is correct. The clove hitch is a very versatile and useful climbing knot but it needs to be tightened to be safe and reliable.
You are of course free to ignore the collective experience and knowledge of the climbing community on this one but it won't make their advice any less true.
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billcoe_
Aug 11, 2012, 1:49 AM
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Is everyone else left thinking the first post said this?
ninepointeight wrote: So can a clove hitch be used to tie up a sheep before having my way with it? My partner thinks figure 8 only but even with the kicking and jumping I'm thinking it's good enough....oh crapo, I'd better delete this post before my buddy reads it and gets pissed I outed him. |
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moose_droppings
Aug 11, 2012, 2:48 AM
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billcoe_ wrote: Is everyone else left thinking the first post said this? ninepointeight wrote: So can a clove hitch be used to tie up a sheep before having my way with it? My partner thinks figure 8 only but even with the kicking and jumping I'm thinking it's good enough....oh crapo, I'd better delete this post before my buddy reads it and gets pissed I outed him.
If you were from Wyoming you'd know from the time you were 12 what knot to use for this.
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rocknice2
Aug 11, 2012, 12:46 PM
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notapplicable wrote: Here is the original post and a link to the google cache page where it can be found - http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/...vcuqMPOF1w&pbx=1 ninepointeight wrote: I was climbing with a much more experienced partner recently and I cloved into the anchor. He said that I should always cinch the knot down right away or it could slip. I did so to appease the leaders ego but it sounds like nonsense to me. Logic and experience tell me that obviously a loose clove will slip a foot or so as the knot tightens and then slip less and less with greater and greater force on an exponential curve until the rope breaks. If that weren't true people wouldn't aid solo on it, right? I see it repeated here... http://climbing.about.com/...tch-For-Climbing.htmAnd the link you (ninepointeight) provided is correct. The clove hitch is a very versatile and useful climbing knot but it needs to be tightened to be safe and reliable. You are of course free to ignore the collective experience and knowledge of the climbing community on this one but it won't make their advice any less true.
Straight from the link 9.8 posted
In reply to: Problems with the Clove Hitch The clove hitch, however, does have some problems. These include: The clove hitch is not as strong as a figure-8-on-a-bight knot or a self-equalizing figure-8 knot for tying into anchors. The clove hitch loses strength if it’s not tightened down after being tied.
The clove hitch can slip when it’s loaded with either the weight of the belayer or a climber below, especially if it is not tightened. The clove hitch can slip if it’s tied with a stiff, wet, or frozen rope. If the clove hitch slips, the rope’s sheath can be abraded and damaged. Solving Clove Hitch Problems These problems with the clove hitch are usually averted by immediately cinching and tightening the knot after it is tied and before the knot is loaded with weight. This keeps the knot from slipping or climbing onto the side of the carabiner that it’s attached to. Always tie a clove hitch on a locking carabiner to avoid the risk of an unloaded carabiner opening under a load, like a fall, and the knot coming undone if the rope pops out of the carabiner. |
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marc801
Aug 11, 2012, 2:19 PM
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rocknice2 wrote: notapplicable wrote: Here is the original post and a link to the google cache page where it can be found - http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/...vcuqMPOF1w&pbx=1 ninepointeight wrote: I was climbing with a much more experienced partner recently and I cloved into the anchor. He said that I should always cinch the knot down right away or it could slip. I did so to appease the leaders ego but it sounds like nonsense to me. Logic and experience tell me that obviously a loose clove will slip a foot or so as the knot tightens and then slip less and less with greater and greater force on an exponential curve until the rope breaks. If that weren't true people wouldn't aid solo on it, right? I see it repeated here... http://climbing.about.com/...tch-For-Climbing.htmAnd the link you (ninepointeight) provided is correct. The clove hitch is a very versatile and useful climbing knot but it needs to be tightened to be safe and reliable. You are of course free to ignore the collective experience and knowledge of the climbing community on this one but it won't make their advice any less true. Straight from the link 9.8 posted In reply to: Problems with the Clove Hitch The clove hitch, however, does have some problems. These include: The clove hitch is not as strong as a figure-8-on-a-bight knot or a self-equalizing figure-8 knot for tying into anchors. The clove hitch loses strength if it’s not tightened down after being tied.
The clove hitch can slip when it’s loaded with either the weight of the belayer or a climber below, especially if it is not tightened. The clove hitch can slip if it’s tied with a stiff, wet, or frozen rope. If the clove hitch slips, the rope’s sheath can be abraded and damaged. Solving Clove Hitch Problems These problems with the clove hitch are usually averted by immediately cinching and tightening the knot after it is tied and before the knot is loaded with weight. This keeps the knot from slipping or climbing onto the side of the carabiner that it’s attached to. Always tie a clove hitch on a locking carabiner to avoid the risk of an unloaded carabiner opening under a load, like a fall, and the knot coming undone if the rope pops out of the carabiner.
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Kartessa
Aug 16, 2012, 2:48 PM
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Way to go Marc, you scared the n00b away.
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marc801
Aug 16, 2012, 5:50 PM
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Thank you. My work here in this thread is done. But alas I'm certain this is not the last we'll see of the mysterious 9.8.
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Kartessa
Aug 16, 2012, 6:28 PM
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marc801 wrote: Thank you. My work here in this thread is done. But alas I'm certain this is not the last we'll see of the mysterious 9.8.
It may be the last of that username, but I'm sure the individual will be back with sketchy sketch and a different handle
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surfstar
Aug 16, 2012, 6:37 PM
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Kartessa wrote: marc801 wrote: Thank you. My work here in this thread is done. But alas I'm certain this is not the last we'll see of the mysterious 9.8. It may be the last of that username, but I'm sure the individual will be back with sketchy sketch and a different handle
Will it a be a lighter, sleeker ninepointfour or a heavier, more robust tenpointtwo...
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Kartessa
Aug 16, 2012, 7:24 PM
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surfstar wrote: Kartessa wrote: marc801 wrote: Thank you. My work here in this thread is done. But alas I'm certain this is not the last we'll see of the mysterious 9.8. It may be the last of that username, but I'm sure the individual will be back with sketchy sketch and a different handle Will it a be a lighter, sleeker ninepointfour or a heavier, more robust tenpointtwo...
Maybe a sexy 7 of 9
http://ultimate-wallpaper.com/media/wallpapers/photos/cache/1nn8PU_entwall_preview.jpg
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