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bearbreeder
Jul 20, 2012, 7:30 PM
Post #26 of 37
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none except for inexperience and an absolute disregard for safety ...
there are many ways to link or extend anchors safe enough for the forces in TR or greater .... even the simple girth hitch would have been better ...
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iknowfear
Jul 20, 2012, 8:03 PM
Post #27 of 37
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JasonsDrivingForce wrote: drivel wrote: gothcopter wrote: chotoken wrote: I don't follow the overhand not use. Was it not clipped in? I'm not sure I understand the way they had this set up. Maybe he meant something like this? that image makes me honestly sick to my stomach. that is the scariest thing i've seen on this website in a while and I can totally see both how someone would do that and how it'd cost their friend his life. condolences again to the loved ones. What type of scenario would lead someone to setup an anchor like this? I have no experience in setting anchors at all. I am just trying to understand what type of situation would compel someone to setup like that. Is it ever necessary to tie a temporary load bearing knot like this?
no. as a general rule, try to avoid doing "temporary" stuff, as one tends to forget that it was meant to be temoporary
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drivel
Jul 20, 2012, 11:37 PM
Post #28 of 37
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JasonsDrivingForce wrote: drivel wrote: gothcopter wrote: chotoken wrote: I don't follow the overhand not use. Was it not clipped in? I'm not sure I understand the way they had this set up. Maybe he meant something like this? that image makes me honestly sick to my stomach. that is the scariest thing i've seen on this website in a while and I can totally see both how someone would do that and how it'd cost their friend his life. condolences again to the loved ones. What type of scenario would lead someone to setup an anchor like this? I have no experience in setting anchors at all. I am just trying to understand what type of situation would compel someone to setup like that. Is it ever necessary to tie a temporary load bearing knot like this?
i mean "i can picture that happening" not "i see valid reasons for doing this." But I can see someone looking at it, thinking it was girth-hitched and thinking it was fine.
but no, can't think of a good reason for ever doing something like that. inexperience.
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chotoken
Aug 6, 2012, 4:12 AM
Post #29 of 37
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Registered: Jun 4, 2006
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JasonsDrivingForce wrote: drivel wrote: gothcopter wrote: chotoken wrote: I don't follow the overhand not use. Was it not clipped in? I'm not sure I understand the way they had this set up. Maybe he meant something like this? that image makes me honestly sick to my stomach. that is the scariest thing i've seen on this website in a while and I can totally see both how someone would do that and how it'd cost their friend his life. condolences again to the loved ones. What type of scenario would lead someone to setup an anchor like this? I have no experience in setting anchors at all. I am just trying to understand what type of situation would compel someone to setup like that. Is it ever necessary to tie a temporary load bearing knot like this?
I could see how someone would setup something like this as a means of checking the length of a anchor extension, or to measure for a equilized anchor. However, I think this is a dangerous practice and shouldn't be done. Anything you rig should be weight supporting from the moment you put it up, no matter what.
My personal preference is to be sure you rig carefully, and double check your rigging. Once you are 100% sure it is safe; check it all one more time.
Chotoken
(This post was edited by chotoken on Aug 6, 2012, 4:15 AM)
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gimmeslack
Aug 6, 2012, 8:32 PM
Post #30 of 37
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Registered: Sep 24, 2006
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chotoken wrote: JasonsDrivingForce wrote: drivel wrote: gothcopter wrote: chotoken wrote: I don't follow the overhand not use. Was it not clipped in? I'm not sure I understand the way they had this set up. Maybe he meant something like this? that image makes me honestly sick to my stomach. that is the scariest thing i've seen on this website in a while and I can totally see both how someone would do that and how it'd cost their friend his life. condolences again to the loved ones. What type of scenario would lead someone to setup an anchor like this? I have no experience in setting anchors at all. I am just trying to understand what type of situation would compel someone to setup like that. Is it ever necessary to tie a temporary load bearing knot like this? I could see how someone would setup something like this as a means of checking the length of a anchor extension, or to measure for a equilized anchor. However, I think this is a dangerous practice and shouldn't be done. Anything you rig should be weight supporting from the moment you put it up, no matter what. My personal preference is to be sure you rig carefully, and double check your rigging. Once you are 100% sure it is safe; check it all one more time. Chotoken
I can't see how. Sorry. Every time I tie a knot in my 'system' it's a knot that will hold me in case of fall. A clove on a binner with end of loop clipped through biner, even a girth-hitch... Always. When rigging, when building anchor, whenever.
It starts from the moment you put on your harness - double back *all the way*. Doing any knot, buckle, or other life-safety component 'temporarily' is begging for a disaster.
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theguy
Aug 7, 2012, 2:25 AM
Post #31 of 37
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Registered: Aug 14, 2004
Posts: 469
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gimmeslack wrote: chotoken wrote: JasonsDrivingForce wrote: drivel wrote: gothcopter wrote: chotoken wrote: I don't follow the overhand not use. Was it not clipped in? I'm not sure I understand the way they had this set up. Maybe he meant something like this? that image makes me honestly sick to my stomach. that is the scariest thing i've seen on this website in a while and I can totally see both how someone would do that and how it'd cost their friend his life. condolences again to the loved ones. What type of scenario would lead someone to setup an anchor like this? I have no experience in setting anchors at all. I am just trying to understand what type of situation would compel someone to setup like that. Is it ever necessary to tie a temporary load bearing knot like this? I could see how someone would setup something like this as a means of checking the length of a anchor extension, or to measure for a equilized anchor. However, I think this is a dangerous practice and shouldn't be done. Anything you rig should be weight supporting from the moment you put it up, no matter what. My personal preference is to be sure you rig carefully, and double check your rigging. Once you are 100% sure it is safe; check it all one more time. Chotoken . Sorry. Every time I tie a knot in my 'system' it's a knot that will hold me in case of fall. A clove on a binner with end of loop clipped through biner, even a girth-hitch... Always. When rigging, when building anchor, whenever. It starts from the moment you put on your harness - double back *all the way*. Doing any knot, buckle, or other life-safety component 'temporarily' is begging for a disaster.
Neither could they:
- "Something like this never happened, ever" - partner 1
- "I'm boggled by it" - partner 2
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gimmeslack
Aug 7, 2012, 7:17 AM
Post #32 of 37
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Registered: Sep 24, 2006
Posts: 136
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theguy wrote: gimmeslack wrote: chotoken wrote: JasonsDrivingForce wrote: drivel wrote: gothcopter wrote: chotoken wrote: I don't follow the overhand not use. Was it not clipped in? I'm not sure I understand the way they had this set up. Maybe he meant something like this? that image makes me honestly sick to my stomach. that is the scariest thing i've seen on this website in a while and I can totally see both how someone would do that and how it'd cost their friend his life. condolences again to the loved ones. What type of scenario would lead someone to setup an anchor like this? I have no experience in setting anchors at all. I am just trying to understand what type of situation would compel someone to setup like that. Is it ever necessary to tie a temporary load bearing knot like this? I could see how someone would setup something like this as a means of checking the length of a anchor extension, or to measure for a equilized anchor. However, I think this is a dangerous practice and shouldn't be done. Anything you rig should be weight supporting from the moment you put it up, no matter what. My personal preference is to be sure you rig carefully, and double check your rigging. Once you are 100% sure it is safe; check it all one more time. Chotoken . Sorry. Every time I tie a knot in my 'system' it's a knot that will hold me in case of fall. A clove on a binner with end of loop clipped through biner, even a girth-hitch... Always. When rigging, when building anchor, whenever. It starts from the moment you put on your harness - double back *all the way*. Doing any knot, buckle, or other life-safety component 'temporarily' is begging for a disaster. Neither could they: - "Something like this never happened, ever" - partner 1 - "I'm boggled by it" - partner 2
My comment refers to chotoken suggesting that it's possible to comprehend the overhand knot, perhaps as a temporary measure. I'm saying that's deadly bullshit. No one should ever tie a lame knot in what will become part of anchor,or anything that might be fallen on - even if temporary,such as while rigging the 'real' anchor. Ever.
Credit to chotoken then arriving at same position i'm stating... It was a lethal error.
In reply to:
(This post was edited by gimmeslack on Aug 7, 2012, 7:22 AM)
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viciado
Aug 8, 2012, 12:30 PM
Post #33 of 37
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Registered: May 9, 2003
Posts: 429
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As to the "HOW", I don't find it hard to imagine...
For example, many people use a square knot to join two pieces of rope together and it s normally sufficient for that purpose when the two working strands are loaded. An inexperienced climber "possibly" used such a knot to tie the webbing onto the rope. Under a single strand load, that knot will roll into a loosely tied pair of half hitches. With the movement of the rope It is easy to see how one of those half hitches would slip out early onwhile the other under cyclic loads would tighten up enough to hold for a few to several cycles then give out when the tail finally slips through.
This is not a by any means a definitive scenario, but just an example of how someone could have set it up thinking it was good.
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ninepointeight
Aug 17, 2012, 1:51 PM
Post #35 of 37
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Registered: May 14, 2012
Posts: 102
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viciado wrote: As to the "HOW", I don't find it hard to imagine... For example, many people use a square knot to join two pieces of rope together and it s normally sufficient for that purpose when the two working strands are loaded. An inexperienced climber "possibly" used such a knot to tie the webbing onto the rope. Under a single strand load, that knot will roll into a loosely tied pair of half hitches. With the movement of the rope It is easy to see how one of those half hitches would slip out early onwhile the other under cyclic loads would tighten up enough to hold for a few to several cycles then give out when the tail finally slips through. This is not a by any means a definitive scenario, but just an example of how someone could have set it up thinking it was good.
I agree the square not is insecure and shouldn't be used for life safety but I'm not sure I follow what you wrote here. How is it possible to have load on only a single strand of a bend?
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viciado
Aug 18, 2012, 9:03 PM
Post #36 of 37
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Registered: May 9, 2003
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ninepointeight wrote: viciado wrote: As to the "HOW", I don't find it hard to imagine... ... snip ... I agree the square not is insecure and shouldn't be used for life safety but I'm not sure I follow what you wrote here. How is it possible to have load on only a single strand of a bend? If you use a square knot to tie the the bight into a loop onto a biner or whatever, only one side of the knot will be loaded and then roll it Try it. and you will see the failure mode.
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Marylandclimber
Aug 22, 2012, 10:57 PM
Post #37 of 37
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Registered: Sep 3, 2011
Posts: 224
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The climbers were not experienced and didn't understand the situation and how much danger they were in. Never EVER do what was in the picture.
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