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ajkclay
Jul 12, 2013, 8:37 AM
Post #27 of 37
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Seriously, grow up.
You have grabbed one word and decided to have a field day with it.
I clarified for you that my point was trying to learn from it. I don't care whether you agree or do what I think is best practice, you can say whatever the hell you like and that's your opinion. You can do whatever the hell you like when taking children climbing, nothing is likely to happen, climbing is not littered with large numbers of fatalities, and I hope that it truly does not. I am not threatened by you being able to say what you want, it's your prerogative.
The same as it is mine to give my thoughts.
If you want to pick fights on the interwebz then go right ahead, you know what they say about fighting on the Internet and winning, I'm not going to be a part of silly games. I clarified my thoughts, say what you like.
You win.
Adam
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bearbreeder
Jul 12, 2013, 9:14 AM
Post #28 of 37
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seriously ....
call people "irresponsible" and you should expect people to point out the flaws of your "argument" ... as others have done as well
the simply fact is that you will very rarely get two fully qualified and experienced adults to check every piece of climbing gear of kids in real life situations ...
just stop by your local climbing gym or crag ... not even guides or instructors get TWO HIGHLY EXPERIENCED "adults"to check every single piece/tie in/anchor/route/etc ...
nor does "adult" mean anything in the climbing world ... EXPERIENCE, PERCEPTION and JUDGEMENT are what matters ... and "adults" have no monopoly on it ... would you trust the alcoholic dad who took a quick TR belay course over a teen with 5+ years daily climbing and leading experience who was taught safety from the get go???
this isnt about "winning" or "losing" ... its about not blaming without all the fact ... and not running around calling people "irresponsible", especially if you dont really know what happened ...
as a side note to the mods ...
this thread should NOT be in A&I for obvious reasons ... it has nothing to do with the "facts" but is pure speculation and "irresponsible" labelling
(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Jul 12, 2013, 9:31 AM)
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JohnCook
Jul 12, 2013, 10:44 AM
Post #29 of 37
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Posts: 221
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This is an unhelpful poll.
I have answered it as best I can. Some of the younger people I climb with use my gear, which I check regularly, some bring their own, and they have parents who don't actually care, eg non-locking biner on belay device. Some parents don't have the skill to check. For these reasons I almost always make a visual check of a young persons gear and in the case of some always check their gear, but the badly worded survey does not allow for this.
I don't think you will be able to draw any useful or relevant conclusions from this half-asses poll!
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climb2core
Jul 12, 2013, 12:21 PM
Post #30 of 37
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I apologize if people found this poll unhelpful or offending. After Tito's tragedy, I heard so many people blaming the adults that were there. I heard it would never happen on my watch, that it was because they were grade chasers, idiots, etc...
From casual observation I believed that the current standard operating practice was not to check each piece of gear when child is sport climbing every time. Hence, I put out the poll to see if that was indeed true.
My only point in all this was that while the tragedy was preventable, it could have happened to any one of us. It is also an opportunity for us to learn and take extra precautions to mitigate risk as best as possible while letting children enjoy the pursuit and passion of climbing.
I also think this accident serves as an opportunity to make sure the children are involved in those safety checks. They should be inspecting the draws with you. They should be looking at the knot with you. They should understand terms like cross-loaded and redundant.
So, lets stop finger pointing, try to set a good example for others to follow, and develop best practices to reduce avoidable risk.
Mods, please feel free to move this.
Thanks,
Ian
(This post was edited by climb2core on Jul 12, 2013, 6:33 PM)
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shockabuku
Jul 13, 2013, 2:16 AM
Post #31 of 37
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Registered: May 20, 2006
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I inspect my gear after use so that I know that it's ready the next time I need it. I guess it gets a cursory look over prior to use but not a detailed inspection.
I'm curious about implied responsibility. I may take minors climbing with me because they are friends of my child, but I don't generally consider myself responsible for their safety while climbing - I'm just the transportation mechanism. Generally they bring their own gear so it's not my concern.
(This post was edited by shockabuku on Jul 13, 2013, 2:20 AM)
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Syd
Jul 16, 2013, 2:54 AM
Post #32 of 37
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Registered: Oct 25, 2012
Posts: 300
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55% "... assume that the parent/adult of that child has sent the child with safe gear. " ... so much for responsibility of parents.
I think it's a very different thing checking your own gear 100% of the time (or not) and making sure your children are safe.
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technogeekery
Jul 16, 2013, 5:16 AM
Post #33 of 37
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Registered: Jun 17, 2009
Posts: 146
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I haven't looked at the poll, certainly sounds like the OP has an agenda, and I'm not interested in polls skewed to prove a point.
But the underlying question is very serious / interesting, and not academic for me - my 6 & 8 year old boys have been climbing indoors for a couple of years with me, and recently started outdoors as well. They aren't leading yet (and won't) but we recently climbed with another family whose 10 year old son was leading 5.6-7 routes, and my sons & watched with interest.
I'm not ready to let my sons lead yet, they aren't ready for it mentally. The older boy in particular climbs well, has real talent - but not much in the way of "common sense" and is easily distracted / shows off / can't understand consequences, so I won't let him lead until he is much more sensible. Even then... personally, I wasn't too sensible until I was in my 30's...
When it comes to safety, I take full responsibility for their safety. I buy and maintain their gear, check it every time it goes on, and check every tie-in / clip-in. I don't get a second adult to check, I think that is overkill (my personal view) but I get them to check it first, and I double check, all the while conscious that there is no real back up for my check. Its good - I don't tend to complacency like I might with myself, and they are learning checking & double check routine. I'll also double check bottom anchors, belay devices etc - but I'm quite comfortable with relying on the gym to have the toprope top anchors properly secured, and the ropes in reasonable nick, given Australia is highly regulated and my 2 gyms reasonably competent & safety conscious. I delegate that responsibility to them (as I do with the lead bolts for my leading) and am okay to do same when my kids are climbing. Outdoors is much the same, I'll check & double check and remove as much danger as I can within what I consider reason - and I suspect that level will vary from parent to parent, child to child, year to year.
I think the intention of the OP is good, and Tito's death has certainly made me (and a lot of people) re-evaluate their decision making process, whcih is a good thing. I'd caution against making sweeping statements or condemning people who might not adhere to your precise process or evaluation of risk though - it probably doesn't advance your cause.
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ajkclay
Oct 29, 2013, 9:10 PM
Post #34 of 37
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Registered: May 9, 2002
Posts: 1567
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https://www.thebmc.co.uk/coaching-instructing-and-the-law
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Ruff_Dog
Oct 30, 2013, 10:53 PM
Post #35 of 37
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Registered: Apr 1, 2013
Posts: 56
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Alright. So, by your logic, I'm considered a child. I'm sixteen, if that matters. And I only own my harness, carabiners, belay devices, and shoes but the guy who I climb with and the gym that I climb at both check me and I check him, with him being my partner. Do we inspect everything? No. Just the basic things, such as the harness, the shoes, the rope, the carabiners, etc. It's a quick check, too. It's not like we're sitting there meticulously scanning everything. As it was said in the thread, no one will. The percentage of human error would most likely be fairly high anyway. It's like saying, do you inspect every hair on your body before you go out in public? No, it'd be pointless.
And yes, I know it's much later than the original posts. I finally logged back into my account.
(This post was edited by Ruff_Dog on Oct 30, 2013, 11:02 PM)
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Toast_in_the_Machine
Nov 7, 2013, 4:38 AM
Post #37 of 37
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Registered: Sep 12, 2008
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My son (12) lead climbs. My daughter (8) does not lead (yet). My son climbs with my quick draws. I visually inspect my draws after a trip and before going on a trip. Prior to a climb I do not re-check the draws any more than I re-check their harnesses. It was good when I put it in the backpack and unless there is reason to check, I don’t thoroughly check it coming out. I also don’t re-check my rope closely just prior to a climb.
I do do a “double check” in that the inspection to confirm that the harness is attached happens after it is attached and just prior to climb. I check the knot (and my own harness) with extra slow caution because I recognize that one of the sets of eyes on this is a 12 year old boy. And while he also checks that my harness is attached and that the ‘biner is locked – he is still a 12 year old boy. I assume that I need to take the same carefulness as if I was alone. I do not have a second adult check. When my daughter top ropes I am even more careful as I do not expect her to have checked her knots or harness. And while lead is more dangerous, a bad knot or harness on top rope is just as dangerous.
For the record, I also scuba with my son, have taught my daughter how to shoot a bow, and my climbing partner is my wife. So feel free to assess those risks.
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