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nonick
Jan 13, 2003, 11:56 AM
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I climb in area where are the rocks are really bad - most times they are so loose and weak that a slight push can turn them into powder.
Out here, the leader cannot take a fall. The protection for most parts, whatever the grade is usually tenous on account of the nature of the rocks.
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ambler
Jan 13, 2003, 2:20 PM
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Most posts are focusing on whether the gear is good, or the flight path is clean. Those are critical questions but not the only questions. I've seen a lot of falls that were much longer than twice the distance above good pro, because other factors came into play -- slack in the rope, belayer position, belayer reaction (or lack of), lower pieces pulling under sideways or upwards loads. The outcomes ranged from a good scare to broken bones, and they could easily have been worse.
Keep in mind that when you fall there is a whole complex system, not just one piece of gear, that you're counting on to save your life. It's hard to predict how that system will perform when shock-loaded by your flying body.
[ This Message was edited by: ambler on 2003-01-13 06:22 ]
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holmeslovesguinness
Jan 13, 2003, 3:19 PM
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I'm still a relatively novice trad leader, so the idea of falling on my gear still fills me with apprehension. I have no problem taking relatively short lead falls (say 10' or less) on bomber gear, but I beyond that I can get pretty gripped.
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dbrayack
Jan 13, 2003, 3:25 PM
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I, for the most part, sport climb, but when I do get on a trad route, in my mind, I am soloing with gear for the worse case, is this a bad mind set? I don't think that I have enough traditional experience to be bold, but I do have enough to place safe gear and keep myself in comfortable situations.
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onbelay_osu
Jan 13, 2003, 4:53 PM
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I just started Trad, have not taken a fall.... I climb WELL with in my ability though, no more than a 5.8
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sonso45
Jan 13, 2003, 4:56 PM
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On a route that I feel solid, I know I won't fall. On a route that's long and new, like the Scenic Cruise, I would be committing to "not fall" for portions of the climb. I went up with the feeling that if I got into a spot I couldn't pass, I was ready to back off even with the hellish retreat up the canyon. I fall only when pushing myself past limits I know and consider the options prior to doing the moves. I am then trying to succed, not test my gear. I have been hurt when I was overconfident and hopefully old age has made me wiser.
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vegastradguy
Jan 13, 2003, 6:56 PM
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As a new trad leader, taking falls isnt high on my list. Mostly because the level i'm leading at (5.6-5.8+ish) makes me not want to fall onto the slab below me. ugh.
However, the more trad I climb, the more I think I should take falls for two reasons. 1) to learn to REALLY trust my gear, because I don't as of yet. Just like the first time climbing, sitting into that harnesss at the top of the top rope, having to trust that gear. *shudder* hard stuff. you intellectually know it'll work, but try to tell that to your insticts.
2) I need to improve. and you improve by climbing at and above your limits.
However, I think I will get a bit more trad mileage on me before pusing my limits. Work my way up to them first, so that I am very comfortable placing gear and climbing. Hopefully by the summer I'll hit 5.9+ and if I'm lucky, i'll tap on 5.10a's before the end of the year.
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brutusofwyde
Jan 14, 2003, 8:44 AM
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> I agree about the "somewhere in between", but
> also, those who have taken many falls on Trad
> gear really trust their placements.
Well, I don't need to get into a p!ssing match with rradam about who has fallen the most. Suffice to say that after more than three decades of climbing, I can usually tell the difference between a bunk placement and a bomber placement.
> Those who have not, don't have the same level
> of trust, and this plays in one's mind when they
> think "one must not fall". Get my point ???
I guess not. Maybe I'm taking your response too personally, but if you are saying that my philosophy comes from a lack of experience, and/or a lack of ability to accurately assess my pro and the climbing situation, you are dead wrong.
Then again, most of my climbing these days is done in the situation Dingus describes... if something bad happens to me, I'll likely be dead before word ever reaches civilization. The rest, the "cragging" as it were, I view as just practice for the "real thing" and thus apply the same philosophy near the road as well.
As far as the comment about roofs being safe, I have to disagree with this generalization. One of the most serious injuries I have ever observed first hand (partial amputation) occurred on a roof route, where the fall should have been clean. AND IT WAS THE SECOND who was injured.
Roofs present the team with a traversing situation, leaving the second potentially as exposed to serious falls as the leader. Even if the outward swing is safe, the return pendulum packs nearly as much kinetic energy as the initial fall, and can slam the climber into the rock sideways, with vulnerable vital organs at risk. Add to this the potential for rope rupture over edges, and that generalization becomes fraught with potentially fatal errors.
Of course, every situation is different, and must be taken as it unfolds. But the above is food for thought.
Climb Safe!
Brutus
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rrrADAM
Jan 14, 2003, 1:30 PM
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Brutus... I've been climbing for about 3 1/2 years, so you have 10X the experience I do. I'm sure that you have also fallen much more than I have.
No pissing match here, as with your experience, you can do it standing up, whereas I still have to squat to pee.
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climb4life
Jan 14, 2003, 9:54 PM
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the question of the fall to me is how much is your life worth to you?
climbing is my life. if i die climbing, then i probably will die happy. however, i have taken numerous falls and i still shrudders at each one of those falls. i am not talking about those short ten foot falls. i once climbed at guadalupe natl park in tx for climbing. that rock was $#!&ty. even the ranger warned us, we still insisted on climbing. i was placing pros closley together for the rock was crap. i took a fall that was supposed to be a five footer, but the crappy rock broke under the weight of my fall and three pro poped out and i fell about twenty feet. no matter how bomber the gear i may have place, don't forget, the rock got to be bomber too. of course i was stupid enough to climb that rock. never get used to the feelings.
climb safe
ps. i once have been told by and old retired climber. climb harder, fall less. i still wonder what that means.
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tanner
Jan 14, 2003, 11:03 PM
Post #36 of 59
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I'm new too trad climbing(less than 1 year under my harness) But I go by the idea of the leader must not fall. I look as trad climbing as free solo with a saftey net. Idea of falling scares me! Not because I don't trust my pro but because once I'm falling I'm out of control. I would probable trust a my gear over a bolt but thats because I don't know any thing about the bolt. My nut or pink tricam I know every thing about it. I do rest on my gear. I think I should take up aid climbing.
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saltspringer
Jan 14, 2003, 11:06 PM
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I don't climb to fall, I climb to enjoy the view, the exhiliration, companionship and pushing my limits: sometimes I fall on trad leads but I do everything I can to avoid falling. The post above that states "climb harder, fall less (close?)" makes sense to me since when I'm trying not to fall I'm usually climbing my best. I've seen quite a few climbers who are quite casual about falling (trad & sport) and they all seem to give up more easily whereas climbers who fight tooth and nail not to fall really seem to have a great sense of accomplishment when they finish their route. When I fall I feel as though I've failed somehow, that I didn't put in quite enough effort...when I climb a route clean I feel that I've climbed the route not fallen up it.
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indigo_nite
Jan 14, 2003, 11:39 PM
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I don't want to fall on my gear. the thing is that when you're climbing at your edge, sometimes you don't have time or great stances to place ideal pro. I think of myself as a relatively new trad leader (1 yr.).
I'm happy now with moderates and moving very gradually towards more challenging stuff. people who I've belayed and like pushing the edge a bit harder seem to climb hard and hang more or one guide placed his cams in spots w/ constrictions on top + bottom (in response to gear popping on hard falls).
right now, when I get gripped at a crux, I'll downclimb to a calm stance and visualize the next sequence (I try not to hang but don't get chancy w/ falls).
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brianthew
Jan 15, 2003, 6:16 AM
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Of course falling is something everbody avoids...regardless of style.
I'm curious what some ice people have to say about this...I'm in my first ice season, and have been admonished not to fall, and I despite my best efforst have done so, and I say, falling even shortish distances on ice gives 10x the "Oh ----!" factor than I've felt on rock. This primarily has to do with the fact I'm holding two sharp pointy weapons and have a set of pointy spikes on my feet, along with boots so stiff that I can just visualize my ankles crunching if the front points catch the ice while I fall....yowch. Even while on top rope, falling often entails a tool popping...and that's what helmets and safety glasses are for .
So I say, on ice, don't fall...ever!
[ This Message was edited by: brianthew on 2003-01-14 22:17 ]
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jt512
Jan 15, 2003, 5:02 PM
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Quote:
Of course falling is something everbody avoids...regardless of style.
Not really. Falls are routine in sport climbing.
-Jay
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brianthew
Jan 15, 2003, 7:24 PM
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I'm primarily a sport climber, and yes, falls are common, but despite thier frequency they are still avoided; I'd rather stick a move than fall. A fall means you blow a redpoint or an onsight, so even in sport climbing, they are avoided.
Granted there are some out there that enjoy big whippers. I am not one of them, though.
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crack_head
Jan 15, 2003, 7:36 PM
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i have only been leading trad for about two months so naturally i don't climb my hardest on lead, yet. i can sport at around 5.9+ and i try not to do any trad routes harder than 5.8, i just trying to get comfortable and more experenced with placing gear. So i havn't even taken a fall on trad lead, but i have taken a handful on sport climbs
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dave1
Jan 16, 2003, 8:37 PM
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Who is Goran, and what happened???
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cracklover
Jan 17, 2003, 7:56 PM
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Goran Kröpp was famous for, among other things, biking solo from Europe to Mt Everest, successfully summitting, and then biking home. Pretty amazing feat! He had a tragic accident this summer where he was leading a single pitch trad crack in Washington state. He fell near the top of his climb, and all the placements failed, causing him to deck (and die). Go to cascadeclimbers.com to get all the details of the accident.
I've only been leading for a couple years - mostly trad, and I've not fallen yet. But neither have I ever backed down off a climb. I did once rest on a piece of gear before completing a lead, but I'm not particularly proud of that fact.
My first priority in these first couple of years has been to focus on my placement when leading, and I happen to live fairly close to the Gunks, where there are dozens of fantastic moderate climbs. So there's been no need to push myself on lead. I've also done a little tiny bit of aiding. I think this was invaluable in helping to see what placements were at least halfway decent, and I'd like to do more.
I'm not in any rush to fall, but when it happens, it happens. I'd like to think that my ability to know my gear is good enough now that I'll probably be okay.
GO
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knuckles
Jan 17, 2003, 11:43 PM
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I see so many now that learned to lead in the gym... falling constantly... yelling take at each bolt... not something we should do outside
I've always respected those among us who freeclimb like I was first taught it: the rope is just there as a safety net. You don't USE it, act like you are soloing... it's there just in case. Better to reverse moves to a good stance or even grab a sling than to roll the dice on gear. I have fallen and I'm sure I will again... and granted my fall isn't going to tear up my belayer like the old body belays would... but the older I get and the more I see the more I trust my hands and feet before nuts and bolts.
Working something and falling repeatedly can be tons of fun... but that's what spotters and crashpads are for
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dino
Jan 18, 2003, 3:32 AM
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I went to cascadeclimbers.com and read the entire 13 page thread (Death at the Coulee) regarding Göran Kropp-RIP. It is sobering commentary and well worth looking at for anybody who plugs their own gear.
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drewdekle
Jan 18, 2003, 10:47 PM
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wow; your question embodies just about all that trad is about. Bold ground-up ascents and run-outs are just part of the game. there are definately times when i know "the leader must not fall" this is the "no fall zone" - especially where i climb most - N.C.. other times, maybe you'te working a hard move just abouve good pro, then, at least you feel a bit better about air time. One thing about trad though is you know just exactly how good you can really climb when it's all on the line.
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nbrown
Jan 19, 2003, 4:20 PM
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I stay well within my limits.
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gawd
Jan 19, 2003, 10:04 PM
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the leader should fall.
why spend all that monies on gear if you never plan to use it.
if you do not fall, then you are not challenging yourself. television is prolly suited better for you.
if you do not fall, how will you learn to fall in a safe and correct manner? most injuries occuring while falling are from inexperienced climbers.
falling is an inherant part of climbing.
rock climbing is meant to be a challenge, learn to challenge yourself. if you are afraid to fall, then learn how. this fear will only ever keep you from ever finding your true limits.
mentality can be won and lost. fight the good fight.
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lynne
Jan 19, 2003, 10:14 PM
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Jeeze, Gawd, did you even bother to read the rest of the posts before writing what you wrote above???
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