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dustinap
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Jan 24, 2003, 6:11 AM
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I am looking for a way to quicken muscle recovery, build muslce fiber and increase my endurance for sport specific exercise. Needless to say I decided to turn to taking protein powder as a breakfast/lunch supplement for my day instead of having a piece of fruit or something like I'd normally have. One day I realized my protein in take was way to low, only about 30-50 grams a day, so this added protein is deffinitely needed for performance IMHO. In the near future I think I am going to start taking glutamine as well, it sounds like it'd be good for my needs.
Anyways, here are a few questions I had:
1.I've read about stacking protein, what is this? I am assuming it is simply taking more then one serving of protein powder per drink. Example, I mix my protein drink with water or soy milk and 1 serving=1 scoop. Instead I may add 2 scoops and this would be "stacking." Is this correct?
2.Because of my activity's I cannot afford to gain any fat mass, would doing this or consuming protein drinks as a meal replacement turn into fat inside my body? Lately I have been taking isolated whey protein.
3. What are some good recipes, I normally just mix mine with water, soymilk or in a small amount of yogurt.
4. In regard to question #2. For dinner I sometimes like to have yogurt with fruit cut up in it. Would adding a serving of protein powder into my meal cause me to gain weight?
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rockpossum
Jan 24, 2003, 6:32 AM
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1.Stacking is a body building term that applies to consuming more than one product to to enhance the desired effect. A protein stack might involve taking whey protein in combination with a less readily digestible protein so that protein is present in your system for a longer period of time.
2. Any excess calories (protein, carb, fat) consumed can be stored as fat.
3. Can't help you there it all tastes like crap to me.
4.Protein powder is not a magic elixir. It might it might not, depends how you train, what else you eat it with. The idea is to make it available when your system needs it. So barring a 24 hour IV drip if you insist on taking it you might knock back a "shake" right after your workout and hope for the best.
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topher
Jan 24, 2003, 6:37 AM
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as for the fat thing, no taking protein will actual start wearing away your fat. go to http://optimumhealth4life.com/ and email the lady there, she is very very good at what she does, one if not the best in north america. or better yet take the coures and learn for your self. she may answear your question.
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mauriceb
Jan 24, 2003, 8:12 AM
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Going along with Rockpossum on responses. I've been taking whey protein for probably two years now mainly b/c the body needs it to build muscle. My goal is 1gm of protien per lb of body weight - 170g in my case. Where you really only eating and drink it as chocolate milk. You can probably go to any nutrition website and find a million smoothie recipes. Pour your protein in
4- Calories in calories out
If you don't eat meat that is cool but you should try to get most of your protien, as well as all other essential nutrients, from whole foods instead of supplements. If you actually were only consuming , nuts, beans, etc.
my $0.02
maurice
wow - this was my longest post ever. who knew i actually had something to say. might be all wrong but still
[ This Message was edited by: mauriceb on 2003-01-24 00:31 ]
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rockpossum
Jan 24, 2003, 8:36 AM
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Maurice;
You're quite right when you described the thermogenic stack as authentic.
I failed to mention that I think using the term "stacking" when referring to protein is bogus. Just a misleading advertising tactic.
I think a supplement distributor uses the term stack in its ads because it sounds cool and brings to mind illicit anabolics where the term originated. Nandro/HGH stacking etc.
Topher;
All due respect but I checked out your link, there is no even reasonable info on it. As for protein "wearing away your fat" you gotta give me some science to back that up dude.
[ This Message was edited by: rockpossum on 2003-01-24 00:39 ]
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apollodorus
Jan 24, 2003, 12:36 PM
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Hotties have a different idea.
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jt512
Jan 24, 2003, 7:09 PM
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topher wished:
Quote:
as for the fat thing, no taking protein will actual start wearing away your fat
Bzzzt! In your dreams, maybe.
dustinap miscalculated:
Quote:
One day I realized my protein in take was way to low, only about 30-50 grams a day
Either you are anorexic, or you've miscalculated. If you're eating enough total calories to maintain stable body weight it is next to impossible to consume so little protein.
As to recipes: Make a smoothie by blending fresh fruit or juice in with your protein supplement. There is a body of research showing that amino acid uptake, muscle recovery, and strength gains are enhanced when protein and carbohydrate are consumed together, compared with protein alone.
-Jay
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grandwall
Jan 24, 2003, 7:34 PM
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I have a similar goal: I want to speed up muscle recovery. I'm not sure if increasing muscle fibers (if you're associating increasing muscle fibers with increasing muscle mass???) and increasing endurance are possible to do at the same time, but I recommend ENDUROX R4 to speed up muscle recovery. The 4 main ingredients to speed up muscle recovery are included in this sports drink and I find that it really works well for recovering from days that I have trained endurance (either cross-training days or days where I've climbed long routes for 4-8 hours).
Caution: in climbing, I am (and maybe you are too) concerned with tendon/connective tissue recovery more than muscle recovery. If your muscles are ready to go but your tendons are not: RIP, RIP, RIP... 6 months off.
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one900johnnyk
Jan 24, 2003, 7:44 PM
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optimum nutrition whey protein. like 1 gram of fat per serving. you can find it most cheaply on the internet in 5lb tubs or more... it won't get you fat if you excersize at least a moderate amount ea. week. any protein you don't use ends up in the toilet anyway. it's the best, for sure
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dustinap
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Jan 24, 2003, 7:55 PM
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Thanks for all the great responses.
About consuming around or less then 50 grams of protein a day. Normally I would have fruit for lunch, what does an orange or bannana have 1 or 2 grams? A bowl of cereal has about 5? and a pience of meat for dinner with whatever to go along with it.
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overlord
Jan 24, 2003, 7:58 PM
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i you increase muscle size, you also increase weight and energy usage. like having a bigger engine in a car. youll be able to pull more, but for a shorter time. maybe a little incesement in protein intake would benefit your recovery because those microijuries heal faster, but if you want to climb, dont stard building big muscles.
CLIMB ON
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jt512
Jan 24, 2003, 8:03 PM
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Quote:
About consuming around or less then 50 grams of protein a day. Normally I would have fruit for lunch, what does an orange or bannana have 1 or 2 grams? A bowl of cereal has about 5? and a pience of meat for dinner with whatever to go along with it.
Sounds like you're anorexic.
-Jay
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blessard
Jan 24, 2003, 8:19 PM
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You can also consult the Falcon book "How to Climb 5.12"...it has a short discussion about protein supplements. He recommends Whey Protein with Peptides.
I've been using "Whey Better" powder by Henry's...don't know if you have them in your area? It has a vanilla flavor and isn't horrible! I think it makes a difference in how quickly I recover from a strenuous workout, plus, I think it helps my overall energy level.
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sycamore
Jan 24, 2003, 8:48 PM
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Directly after your workout, it is often advised that you consume a food/liquid high on the glycemic index (i.e., something sugary) to raise insulin levels in the body to help speed the rejuvenation of glycogen stores in the muscles. Then, consumption of a easily digestible protein is recommended, sometime within two hours of the workout. This the time where the benefits of a supplement vs. wholefoods come into play, as speed of absorption is key. Also, you may want to consider supplimenting with vitamins C (especially necessary in connective tissue growth), E, and perhaps selenium, as almost every study on the topic has shown antioxidants to speed recovery.
[ This Message was edited by: sycamore on 2003-01-24 12:50 ]
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quietseas
Jan 24, 2003, 8:50 PM
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to clear up the term "stacking" in regards to protein. Different proteins (ie wheat, soy, egg, meat) are made up of different amino acids. for example, the amino acid L-Tryptophan is most common in red meats, so a diet consisting of mostly wheat and soy proteins would be nearly lacking in this amino acid. FYI it was discovered sometime in the 80's that Tryptophan is a necessary amino acid for the body to produce muscle, and on all protein supplements you will now find "the L-Tryptophan indicated is from naturally occuring sources of protein" because it was being created in a lab and sold as a steroid so the FDA got $#!&ty about it. About the only Protein Supplement that I have found that has a high Tryptophan level is Gainer's Fuel. So, not all supplements are created equal. Look at your diet, i normally had no problem eating enough meat to get those AAs, so I would often supplement with whey protein since it is most readily absorbed by the body. (i've actually heard some conflicting information saying that dairy protein was the most absorbable, but have not been able to confirm that). All in all, the decision on what supplements to take, how much to take, all depends on you. Different bodies respond differently to each circumstance, for example I would be considered a "hard gainer" and when i would lift i usually consumed more than one gram of protein per pound of body weight (normally around 200g, i was 170lbs at the time). In answer to the glutamine question, glutamine is an amino acid that is necessary for your body to build muscle. It is not, however, an Essential Amino Acid. the EAAs are amino acids that your body CANNOT produce on it's own and is totally dependent on food consumption for.
On the taste issue, again personal taste, but if you decide to take a whey protein try a product called "American Whey". If it is still made by American Sports Nutrition it was very good tasting.
Hope this has helped!
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jt512
Jan 24, 2003, 9:17 PM
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My advice on which protein supplement to use is this: buy whatever is cheap and palatable. The amino acid composition of the "best" and "worst" supplements are too similar to worry about. If you think that the mix of amino acids in cheap supplements is suboptimal, just consume a little more of it. Eating 40 g/day of a supplement that costs $6 a can will end up being just as beneficial as 30 g/day of a supplement that costs $25 a can, and obviously, a lot more economical.
-Jay
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rockpossum
Jan 24, 2003, 9:49 PM
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Any one have any info on the World Health Organization, W.H.O. protein absorption index? A few years ago a great deal of hooha was made over the fact that free ionized whey protein (or some such thing) had the highest absorption rate.
Re: the FDA tryptophan ban. Back in the 80's a few people who were taking tryptophan supplements croaked. Turns out it was because the binding agent the manufacturer used was tainted. It had nothing whatsoever to do with the tryptophan itself but the FDA under pressure from pharma companies used the deaths as an excuse to ban it altogether. It is a terrific relaxant and sleeping aid with no side effects, the last thing big drug needs is a wholesome competitor.
[ This Message was edited by: rockpossum on 2003-01-24 13:56 ]
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jt512
Jan 24, 2003, 9:52 PM
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Rockpossum,
I have difficulty believing that fractional absorption differs much among protein supplements. I'd be interested in seeing any research on this.
-Jay
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rockpossum
Jan 24, 2003, 9:59 PM
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I'll see what I can find J. I recall a few of the manufacturers using this W.H.O. report to seperate themselves from the competition.
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ggraham
Jan 26, 2003, 8:06 AM
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Read this...
http://www.trygve.com/supplement_faq.html
and this
http://www.stumptuous.com/crap.html
- Gareth
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enigma
Jan 28, 2003, 6:29 PM
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Any recommendations for a soy-based protein supplement without sugar? Something that tastes great,please, and where to try it and buy it. Thanks,the milk-based ones give me a stomach-ache.
Tried max-pro,tasted pretty good but is milk-based,even though the protein was whey.
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jt512
Jan 28, 2003, 6:43 PM
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Quote:
Any recommendations for a soy-based protein supplement without sugar?
I've used the Clarke's Nutrition store brand soy protein isolate, which I find palatable. It's cheap -- about $5 a can -- a fraction of the brand name designer proteins. There are Clarke's Nutrition stores in Loma Linda, Riverside, and San Bernardino, (CA).
-Jay
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jds100
Jan 29, 2003, 12:41 AM
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To answer a little bit of the original question, I don't think "recovery" from a workout can be achieved by protein alone. I agree completely with JT that it sounds like your protein intake is drastically low (maybe dangerously low). I suspect that if your protein intake is that low, then you would be feeling fatigue after relatively little activity, and the fatigue would stay with you, irrespective of sleep and hydration. As a ballpark starting point, if you're a 176 lb. man engaged in athletic activity, your body will require from about 115 to 160 grams of protein per day, depending on the kind of athletic activity (speed, strength, or endurance as the predominant characteristic).
I'm not a fan of soy protein; I've never found it to be nearly as effective as animal protein (whey, egg whites) supplements. But, JT knows what he's talking about, so trust his recommendation.
I also agree completely that the inexpensive protein supplements are going to help you achieve the same goals as the expensive ones. They don't do the exercise for you, and there are no magic ingredients that transform your body. Whatever palatable whey or egg-and-whey protein is what I'd recommend. I personally use a whey protein from Vitamin World, which has retail stores and an onlline store, that sells for about $30 for 5 lbs. On the first Monday and Tuesday of each month, all purchases are 30% cheaper (with a free membership), so it goes for about $21 per 5 lb. tub.
As for recovery form workouts, you need to be getting adequately hydrated during the workout, and the hydration drink should include some complex carbohydrates, as well. Beware of most commercial sport drinks, that have either simple sugars or protein in the drink. Simple sugars will spike your insulin reaction, and you'll crash and burn ("bonk"). Protein in the drink during the workout will pull water from your muscles into your digestive tract to help digest the protein, that you won't need until after the workout. Keep hydrated during the workout with a simple drink of water and complex carbs (www.supplementdirect.com; look for Complex Carbohydrates). I add L-Glutamine to my homemade drink mix, to help keep the muscles going during the workout, too (also at the same site). The homemade drink mix is infinitely cheaper than any brand name product, and is as effective for the needs.
After the workout, as somebody said, you'll want to get some simple sugar into your system within a half-hour; dextrose is good for the purpose, or something like Pop Tarts. Plain white sugar is not all that far from dextrose, but it still spikes the insulin more than dextrose, and I don't like it as much. The simple sugar will get the help restore the glycogen, depleted from your muscles. Within an hour after the workout, two at the most, ingest about half of your daily intake for protein. This is obviously most likely to come from a protein supplement shake. Add some fruit (fresh or canned in juice), vegetables, and maybe a half-cup of high fiber cereal (Fiber One), and you're in good shape.
The combination of adequate protein, taken at the right time, and adequate hydration during workouts, should make your recovery go smoothly, and make it possible to get the most out of your workouts.
By the way, I'm a big advocate for keeping the supplements cheap, in part because that makes it easier and more likely that I (and anyone else) will use them consistently and in the manner they're needed, instead of conserving them 'cuz they're too expensive.
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topher
Jan 29, 2003, 1:13 AM
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ok i know the page has litte to no info but it was so you could get in contact with her.
as for the protein wearing fat away how it works is, your body doesnt turn protein into fat like it does with carbs so if you up your protein and work out you loss fat becuase your body hase nothing to replace it with.
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rockpossum
Jan 29, 2003, 2:17 AM
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This has been done before and better. i particularly like rockpossums clever posts.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=22544&forum=36&start=0
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