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josephine
Mar 1, 2003, 10:27 AM
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Yesterday,i went to the gym for my climbing lesson.There was a beginner,he had climbed before [2 times actually]and he knew all the things about protection and double check etc...
He wore his harness,i asked him to see by myself if he was tied properly.He said that he checked and that he was ok.And the phrase i always hear "I know...I know"
I didn't insist on checking him."He knew"
I was on belay,he was climbing an easy route.In the middle of the route he heard "a scratch",his harness was untied![he hadn't tied it properly of course]He started to scream and move his body awkwardly[that]...The harness could untied more and he could fall...I asked him to calm down and stop moving[of course he didn't],i lowered him very quickly.
When he went down guess who blamed???...
Of course me...
My fault was that I didn't insist to check him."He knew"
Jesus,Why everyone think that they know everything?Grrrr...
Why everyone blame others for their own mistakes???
Why beginners have so much ego??
Ok,i know now that i will never belay a beginner again or at least i will check myself that the harness is tied,he scared me to death,not because his harness was untied because of how he handle the situation.
Moral:what we all know check yourselves 2,3 or 4 times...
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thomasribiere
Mar 1, 2003, 12:26 PM
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thr only 2 times I didn't tie my harness cproperly were bacause I was disturbed, made something else, and then forgot to finish to tie it... In Lynn Hill autobiography, she writes the time she fell up from Buoux (like a 60-80 feet fall in trees) : the harness was tied, not the knot... :(
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redpoint73
Mar 1, 2003, 1:47 PM
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Good point, thomas. I try to make it a point to not do other things while I am putting on my harness and tying it: Talk to people, grab my shoes, chalkbag, etc. I guess thats how Lynn Hill fell. She started tying her knot, then stopped to grab her shoes, then did not finisht the knot.
Josephine, IMHO I would not stop climbing with beginners becasue of this incident. As you can see with the Lynn Hill story, it can happen to experienced climbers too. I actually think that beginners are more careful than experienced climbers. Some climbers tend to get complacent after a while. Beginners usually check and double check everything because they are scared of getting hurt.
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josephine
Mar 1, 2003, 2:02 PM
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It's not that he didn't tie his harness properly,but how he reacted,he could fall only because of his reaction,he could hurt badly.I know that fear make us do stupid things but we must face the fear before we get hurt.
If the harness is untied on the waist you can't go anywhere because of the part of the harness that hold us between our legs but if that part is untied...Ohhh,well...bye..bye!
In reply to: thr only 2 times I didn't tie my harness cproperly were bacause I was disturbed, made something else, and then forgot to finish to tie it... In Lynn Hill autobiography, she writes the time she fell up from Buoux (like a 60-80 feet fall in trees) : the harness was tied, not the knot... :(
Thomas i will scold you..2 times http://www.planetsmilies.com/...fused/confused42.gif
From now on Please,check yourself.
Yeah,i heard that before.In that case,leave your harness untied but at least tie your knot. :roll:
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josephine
Mar 1, 2003, 2:13 PM
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In reply to: Good point, thomas. I try to make it a point to not do other things while I am putting on my harness and tying it: Talk to people, grab my shoes, chalkbag, etc. I guess thats how Lynn Hill fell. She started tying her knot, then stopped to grab her shoes, then did not finisht the knot. Josephine, IMHO I would not stop climbing with beginners becasue of this incident. As you can see with the Lynn Hill story, it can happen to experienced climbers too. I actually think that beginners are more careful than experienced climbers. Some climbers tend to get complacent after a while. Beginners usually check and double check everything because they are scared of getting hurt.
Disturbance is the worst enemy for climbers,and mostly disturbing a belayer...
Redpoint,There are beginners though,that they think they know everything and they don't let another person to check them,in this case a "woman".
And the same ppl that blame others for their own mistakes.
Can anyone tell me where was my mistake as a belayer?
I know that my fault was that i didn't insist to check him...
:?
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vram1974
Mar 1, 2003, 3:36 PM
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I work in a gym where I teach introductory lessons every day. I stress and emphasize the importance of a safety check, whether the climber submits to one or not. If I haven't checked my partner, I refuse to belay them until I have. They can't very well climb if the rope doesn't go up.
One time I taught a lesson to a beginner, and he promptly went off with his partner and went climbing. He was belaying her on a router when I noticed that as she fell she almost flipped. This was because she was only tied in from the lower point of her harness. Needless to say I chastised said beginner many times. I did not, however, blame the climber. Why? Because it is *always* the belayers fault. YOU accept responsibility for the persons safety by agreeing to belay them. You also accept responsibility for making sure they are safe before they even get on the wall.
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duracellbunny
Mar 1, 2003, 4:07 PM
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Your mistake as a belayer was not insist on checking his harness. As a belayer your responsible for checking your partner's harness, knot, and gear. Both of you are a team and you should take care of your partner.
Next time don't trust his word, see for yourself if everything is right.
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josephine
Mar 1, 2003, 4:55 PM
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Vram1974,So what i get here is that the belayer takes always the blame...
That climbers never make a mistake?Is that what you're saying?
If i were in his possition,i will never accuse someone who tried to avoid him from hurting bad.
This is what i know:
The belayer has the responsibility to belay the climber and get him down safe,I've never learned that the belayer's responsibility is to check the climber if his harness is properly tied,at least my instructor didn't teach me that[i do it sometimes because i want to]
You know you can't check someone if he doesn't let you check him[it's like you asking the climber if he or she puts his pants properly].And telling you that everything it's ok.
You're telling me that it was my fault...Do you know what that guy said when he got down to the ground?!
He said that it was my fault that he's harness untied up there because of my belay...sorry but i think that's stupid.How did i do that?
How can i possibly untie his harness up there?
That guy doesn't know how to belay for God's sake.Why am i responsible for that?
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josephine
Mar 1, 2003, 5:01 PM
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In reply to: Your mistake as a belayer was not insist on checking his harness. As a belayer your responsible for checking your partner's harness, knot, and gear. Both of you are a team and you should take care of your partner. Next time don't trust his word, see for yourself if everything is righ.
I always check the knot and the gear and sometimes the harness not in this case because he didn't let me...
We're not a team,i just belay him because noone wanted to belay him.He's not my partner and absolutely i would never want him to belay me.
There will not be another time with that guy.
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vram1974
Mar 2, 2003, 8:15 PM
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In reply to: Vram1974,So what i get here is that the belayer takes always the blame...
Well, not exactly. For an instance, refer to the next paragraph.
In reply to: That climbers never make a mistake?Is that what you're saying?
Yes and no. Climbers frequently make mistakes. Which is why "two heads are better than one". I know of very experienced climbers who, at the end of the night do stupid things because they are tired. For instance, recently in the gym I had one person lead belaying another with a munter hitch, a rather lesser known belay technique (and almost extinct in the gym), although quite acceptable if you know what you are doing.
Unfortunately, not only was the belayer loading the rope over the carabiner gate, he had forgotten the rather more important part of doubling back his harness. Both aspects of that was largely to blame on the climber. He had failed to:
A) Check to make sure the belayer had loaded the munter hitch correctly. Just as you would pull on the GriGri rope to check that it was loaded correctly, or push on the carabiner to make sure it was locked.
B) Check to make sure his belayer was doubled back. A basic safety issue.
In the event, however, that the belayer is belaying off a ground anchor where no harness is required, and the sole responsibility of that belayer is the safety of his partner, then not checking the harness and the tie-in is ultimately inexcusable.
I stand by the position, however unpopular, that in this event the blame is entirely with the belayer. I am not trying to make you feel badly, Josephine, but I do disagree with the way you were taught to climb. Checking your partner for safety is NOT an optional thing. The safety check is fully and utterly mandatory. Negligence in this regard shows that one is not fully cognizant of the inherent risks of climbing.
In reply to: This is what i know: The belayer has the responsibility to belay the climber and get him down safe,I've never learned that the belayer's responsibility is to check the climber if his harness is properly tied,at least my instructor didn't teach me that[i do it sometimes because i want to]
It is not optional.
In reply to: You know you can't check someone if he doesn't let you check him[it's like you asking the climber if he or she puts his pants properly].And telling you that everything it's ok.
No, I disagree. It is a faulty analogy. Putting on ones pants is wholly irrelevant to the issue of safety. If you are with someone who refuses to submit to a safety check, that person is showing a basic disregard and contempt for the inherent risks of climbing. By accepting responsibility for the person by being a "belayer", you must ensure that they are safe before they leave the ground.
In reply to: You're telling me that it was my fault...Do you know what that guy said when he got down to the ground?! He said that it was my fault that he's harness untied up there because of my belay...sorry but i think that's stupid.How did i do that?
Josephine, I respect you because you have shown the humility to admit you made a mistake. You also display a muturity and awareness that you cannot climb with people who flaunt the rules of safety. But now you have to own up to your own share of responsibility and admit that you made a mistake by not double-checking your, albeit grossly immature, partner.
In reply to: How can i possibly untie his harness up there? That guy doesn't know how to belay for God's sake.Why am i responsible for that?
You aren't. He is simply frothing because of the close-call. Most people do that when they do stupid things. But next time you know what to do.
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drkodos
Mar 2, 2003, 8:52 PM
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In reply to: Because it is *always* the belayers fault. YOU accept responsibility for the persons safety by agreeing to belay them. You also accept responsibility for making sure they are safe before they even get on the wall.
Um...no.
Climbing is about SELF responsibilty.
Liberal fascism at its best......
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vram1974
Mar 2, 2003, 9:12 PM
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In reply to: Um...no. Climbing is about SELF responsibilty.
To a certain extent, yes it is. Ultimately I will never blame anyone for actions which I did or did not take which led to an accident. I do, however, count on my belayer to help me point out what I may have overseen.
I'm sorry, but I do not buy into the "self responsibility" excuse. If you want that, go and free solo, or boulder. The moment you are physically roped up with somebody, or you are belaying them, each of you are responsible for each other. And more importantly, if I am belaying somebody I accept full responsibility for doing my job correctly. This includes:
1. Harness buckles check
2. Rope check
3. Belay Device and locking carabiner check
4. Proper communication and protocols before climbing
If you accept the job as "belayer", and do NOT check your partner in this 4 points above, and there is a problem related to one of those 4 points, you are in a grave position of error.
Yes, we each accept responsibility for our own lives, because we value them so much. Thus, in order to safeguard our own lives, it is best to fully value your partner's, so that the act may be reciprocal, thus giving us a better shot over the long haul.
Show your tie-in and harness to your partner each and every time, even if it may seem ridiculous and superfluous to you. One day, far in the future, you may find your partner catching something you would have hated to miss.
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drkodos
Mar 2, 2003, 9:18 PM
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Vram1974:
I respect your opinion, but I disagree.
According to your line of thinking, if my partner is climbing and falls, ripping out a piece, this too is my responsibilty? I should go and inspect the gear placements too?
I do agree 100% that proper communication is critical.
Peace
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bakedjake
Mar 2, 2003, 9:21 PM
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I'm glad to see someone posted this thread. Word is there was a recent accident on a NYC wall/gym where someone was paralyzed. At my wall everyone said it was the belayers fault even though they don't know what actually took place. I don't disagree with them. It struck me as strange at first but I do follow their logic. I'm a new climber but after hearing of the accident I now double check, request belay and climb commands and I don't take my eyes off my climber. It's comman etiquette at my gym to engage in conversation and to just assume the gri gri and the climber will never fail while belaying. I had one belayer who while I waited a couple minutes finally realized I was ready to come down, he was busy talking to someone next to him. I don't believe he was doing his full duty as a belayer. Always double check.
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kellebelle
Mar 2, 2003, 9:25 PM
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When I am belaying for anyone i always make sure everything is doubled backed and tied correctly. However, when I was working a party, there was one kid who had his harness too loose. I clipped him in and saw that everything was double backed but failed to realize that his harness was too loose. Luckily he only went up a few feet and he fell, inverted and fell out of his harness. The parents thought nothing of it but i was so freaked and knew he could've gotten seriously hurt if he had gone higher. From then on i now always just tug down on their harness to make sure its tight enough and that that wont ever happen again.
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misha
Mar 2, 2003, 10:07 PM
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that guy is a fricken dumbass and a pussy. He's 15 feet up and he panicks and screams like a little girl?
#1 Gyms are riddled with jugs and he could have easily grabbed onto any nearby hold.
#2 If he did fall he would land from a couple of feet up onto soft padding.
#3 He was a dumbass and an asshole for getting mad at you. You should have punched him in the mouth and publicly humilated him for having the stupidity and lack of balls to get scared on a toprope in the gym.
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duracellbunny
Mar 2, 2003, 10:32 PM
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I agree 100% with vram1974. :wink:
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josephine
Mar 3, 2003, 2:40 PM
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Vram1974
Noone accussed me for anything,my instructor didn't say anything to me.
Ppl trust me,i always belay experienced climber and my instructor,they trust me,i know how to belay and i know more about safety and protection than anyone else in the team.
I made this post just to see what the others think about this,some say it was my fault,i respect you and i accept that,others say that i did my part,i wanted to check him he didn't let me so...
Because i felt bad about what happened because i was the belayer.And yes,i feel awful!
That really make me think that i will never climb with stupid ppl again.
That guy probably he didn't let me to check him because *I* am a WOMAN.
He's big ego said to him "what you'll let "her" check you" "she doesn't know anything"...etc..
I surely did a big mistake,i belayed him when noone else didn't want to...
I admitted where was my mistake..."I didn't insist to check him" "He knew" "I didn't"
In reply to: You aren't. He is simply frothing because of the close-call. Most people do that when they do stupid things. But next time you know what to do.
There will not be another time with stupid ppl,i will not accept to belay anyone if they had no brain in their heads...
Noone will never belay him in the team.
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josephine
Mar 3, 2003, 2:49 PM
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In reply to: that guy is a fricken dumbass and a p----. He's 15 feet up and he panicks and screams like a little girl? #1 Gyms are riddled with jugs and he could have easily grabbed onto any nearby hold. #2 If he did fall he would land from a couple of feet up onto soft padding. #3 He was a dumbass and an asshole for getting mad at you. You should have punched him in the mouth and publicly humilated him for having the stupidity and lack of balls to get scared on a toprope in the gym.
Thank you thank you...You got the point misha.Of course!
He could have hurt just because of his reaction.
Did he tried to grab a hold?
Hell,no!He was too close to the wall and he didn't.
Did he stop moving and kicking the wall?
Nope!
Did he stop screaming?
Nope!
Ohh,yes he was humiliated...from his own reaction...I don't think anyone will want to belay him...not even my instructor.
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sroehlk
Mar 3, 2003, 3:09 PM
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Always double-check!
Belayer checks the climber.
Climber checks the belayer.
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flynnypek
Mar 3, 2003, 3:53 PM
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Vram1974:
I don't agree with you.
I understand that the belayer is the person in charge of the safety. Still you CAN'T make him responsible for whatever accidents may have happened.
I agree that the belayer should double-check that everything is in place but if the climber says: "I know how to do it, you don't need to check it" I would say then that relies on the climbers responsability rather than the belayers.
I'll put this example:
All the ropes, harnesses, biners... etc say something like "Climbing is dangerous and it can end-up into serious injure or death". We all as climbers have read that warning and still we go to the rocks... don't we?? so... who's responsability is if any of us have an accident? PETZL, ROCA, MAMMUT... etc. because they suggested us we shouldn't be climbing, but provided us the gear... or us... because we decided to go out and climb?
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vertical_reality
Mar 3, 2003, 3:57 PM
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I always and I mean ALWAYS double check myself and my partner before the first climb. If I'm belaying I'll always ask right before they reach for the first hold and I always check my buckles before every climb I do... and if I'm climbing I ask before I even start a route. The only thing I don't check visually is the belay biner... I always reach over and pinch that sucker to make sure it's locked.
Climb Wisely,
Mike
P.S. You should have slapped that pansy though.
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vram1974
Mar 3, 2003, 4:57 PM
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In reply to: I agree that the belayer should double-check that everything is in place but if the climber says: "I know how to do it, you don't need to check it" I would say then that relies on the climbers responsability rather than the belayers.
I hear what you're saying. But my reply is that I simply don't climb with people who don't do safety checks. But that's just me.
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cracklover
Mar 3, 2003, 5:21 PM
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Sounds like a scary experience! I think there are more lessons to be learned than just not to tie in with "stupid people".
Josephine, it sounds like there is a cultural gap in standard safety methods between Greece and the US. Here in the US, one is generally taught that once a climber and belayer agree to rope up together, they must act as a team, and are responsible for each other's safety to some degree. In particular, before the climber leaves the ground there is a drill which we are all taught. The climber checks the belayer's: Harness, biner/belay device. And the belayer checks the climber's: Harness, tie-in/knots.
You may say this guy was not your partner, but for at least that climb - he was. What if he had been belaying and you were climbing. What if he said he knew how to belay and wouldn't let you see his belay device. Would you have climbed anyway, or have told him to get lost? I hope for your safety you would have told him that you must work as a team, or neither of you is safe. In other words, play safe, or don't tie in with me!
One other thing...
In reply to: If the harness is untied on the waist you can't go anywhere because of the part of the harness that hold us between our legs but if that part is untied...Ohhh,well...bye..bye!
Sorry, but this is simply not true. If the waist comes completely unbuckled the climber must hold themself upright either by maintaining contact with the wall or by holding onto the rope. Otherwise the climber will be flipped over by the harness and will fall out of the leg-loops.
GO
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josephine
Mar 3, 2003, 6:02 PM
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Yes,it was a scary experience!Oh,yes the most important lesson that i learned from that is: "Never belay wacko ppl".
The second is:always double check,whatever they tell you.
I don't think he saw me as a partner.A partner accepts the checking and he or she doesn't feel like i'm gonna do to him or her something bad.
He didn't want me to check him,it's like he felt that i told him something bad .I said i want to check you,he said everything is ok".I know!"
I said "Are you sure?"
Yes,"i know"!!! {here-did you catch the tone of his voice}
No your wrong,we all learn the same things.
Can i ask just this?Do you always check your partner if he or she has his harness tied properly?And i mean always!
I'm not asking to tell me about the tie-in,the knot or the gear etc...just the harness,if it's properly tied.
I always check the knot,the gear and as i said before, the harness if that person is a newbee and doesn't know how to tie it in the waist and legs.I even check the shoes...I don't think there's another person that checks and the last detail...I'm very careful to others more than to myself.
In reply to: Sorry, but this is simply not true. If the waist comes completely unbuckled the climber must hold themself upright either by maintaining contact with the wall or by holding onto the rope. Otherwise the climber will be flipped over by the harness and will fall out of the leg-loops.
I made a point before,read my first posts...I said that he moved his body awkwardly and kicking the wall...
Of course he could flipped and it was a miracle he didn't.
If he was still he couldn't go anywhere...
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