|
beerandblood
Deleted
Dec 21, 2001, 10:37 PM
Post #1 of 28
(5908 views)
Shortcut
Registered:
Posts:
|
import_temporary
|
|
|
|
|
kriso9tails
Dec 22, 2001, 6:07 AM
Post #2 of 28
(5908 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 1, 2001
Posts: 7772
|
When I used to work at the local gym we'd try to keep them in the bouldering cave for as long as possible (if it wasn't occupied with real climbers). What can I say, we were slackers, and this was the easiest way to avoid work. So anyways, we'd give a dollar to whoever could reach the top first, and after that wore off, I'd do a dyno that we had spent some time wiring. They'd all be impressed thinking that I had to be a phenomenal climber and start bouldering again to try and repeat the dyno.
|
|
|
|
|
pianomahnn
Dec 22, 2001, 6:35 AM
Post #3 of 28
(5908 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 17, 2001
Posts: 3779
|
No.
I don't lie.
|
|
|
|
|
pianomahnn
Dec 22, 2001, 3:35 PM
Post #4 of 28
(5908 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 17, 2001
Posts: 3779
|
I was implying that my answer of no was not a lie.
After I submitted this I tought of something. It is like lying. You're deceiving someone, or a group of people about something. Isn't that lying? It may not be a verbal communication lie, but a lie none theless.
[ This Message was edited by: pianomahnn on 2001-12-22 07:36 ]
|
|
|
|
|
climberchic
Dec 22, 2001, 4:34 PM
Post #5 of 28
(5908 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 24, 2000
Posts: 2077
|
I don't think it's lying so much as it is stretching the truth. I mean, you ARE doing it, you're just not divulging the practice that went into. Unless you claim that to be the first time sending or you haven't done something before that you had previously dialed in you are simply accepting praise.
Do you consider magicians liars? It appears that they are pulling doves out of thin air, although they actually are not. Why is it their responsiblity to educate the fooled public?
If people believe you've sent something for the first time, although you haven't, I don't think it to be a lie unless asked for the truth and giving a false answer.
Anyway, that's how I feel about that.
But then again, I could be lying
|
|
|
|
|
ratstar
Dec 22, 2001, 4:42 PM
Post #6 of 28
(5909 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 11, 2001
Posts: 1144
|
piano is right it is deceiving people. But it isnt lying. Just deceiving. I havent ever done it though (to my knowledge) I dont like to show off alot.
|
|
|
|
|
colin
Dec 23, 2001, 1:39 AM
Post #7 of 28
(5908 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 3, 2001
Posts: 708
|
Who hasn't? I don't really approve of it but I can't deny every doing it.
|
|
|
|
|
blimpdriver
Dec 23, 2001, 3:44 AM
Post #8 of 28
(5909 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 23, 2001
Posts: 83
|
I think beerandblood has a cool name. As for as sandbagging, who was that guy who said he didn't...pianomahnn. ok buddy
|
|
|
|
|
pianomahnn
Dec 23, 2001, 7:01 AM
Post #9 of 28
(5908 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 17, 2001
Posts: 3779
|
Blimp, you don't know me, and therefor you really can't make those comments and expect to have them respected.
I have no reason to sandbag. I climb better, or as good as those I climb with, so I have no reason to sandbag. Simple as that. I would never send a problem and act as though it were my first time, when in fact I had worked it prior to that. It doesn't make sense to me.
So, with that said, you can accept what I say as fact, or continue being ignorant.
|
|
|
|
|
colin
Dec 23, 2001, 7:09 AM
Post #10 of 28
(5908 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 3, 2001
Posts: 708
|
I try to remember what I thought it should be my first, second, third, etc, times attempting it. Then, I make an average of the grades. This gives me an idea of what it should be and works for me when trying to avoid sandbagging a new route.
Or I just use guestimation coupled with other peoples opinions.
|
|
|
|
|
tristero
Dec 23, 2001, 3:44 PM
Post #11 of 28
(5908 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 6, 2001
Posts: 114
|
No Lying, Just climbing.
Personally, I'm not impressed with what someone has achieved as much as I am with how much effort they put into it.
I know we all thinks it's cool to onsight...and that we really, really appreciate the climber who keeps trying and trying until they scend. That's cool.
Sandbagging could be fun if just a few moments after you scend the problem, while the onlooking climbers are still in awe you admit "just kidding you guys, I've been working this thing for weeks, but wouldn't it have been cool?"
Peace
|
|
|
|
|
pianomahnn
Dec 23, 2001, 4:00 PM
Post #12 of 28
(5908 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 17, 2001
Posts: 3779
|
As long as you're honest, that's all that matters. But to keep people thinking you flashed a v8 (or any problem at your peak level) when in fact you've worked it to death is just wrong. I understand the little joke situations, but even then you still reveal the actual truth.
Deception is evil.
|
|
|
|
|
graniteboy
Dec 23, 2001, 4:41 PM
Post #13 of 28
(5908 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 1, 2001
Posts: 1092
|
I learned the hard way that sandbagging is a bad practice. I had a young guide who worked for me, and had a little bit of a competitive attitude. I had just led this thin lieback seam in the valley, which had really poor protection and 5.10 moves about 40 feet off the deck. I cruised up the thing and said "it's OK". He immediately had to lead the thing, to show he could do what I could, and he got up there and damned near popped off the thing. He would have decked and been pretty damned injured. I tend to avoid downplaying runout or dangerous climbs now, to keep from inadvertently killing people.
Live and burn.
|
|
|
|
|
rrrADAM
Dec 25, 2001, 12:02 AM
Post #14 of 28
(5908 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 19, 1999
Posts: 17553
|
I've found that if I grunt and groan enough on a climb, I can add a couple letter grades to the difficulty... In my 2nd's eyes at least.
rrrADAM
|
|
|
|
|
passthepitonspete
Dec 25, 2001, 1:13 AM
Post #15 of 28
(5908 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 10, 2001
Posts: 2183
|
Sandbag?
Go climb a few of my routes.
Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!
[Diabolical]Dr. Evil laughter]
|
|
|
|
|
phil_nev
Dec 25, 2001, 8:22 AM
Post #16 of 28
(5908 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 11, 2001
Posts: 361
|
i know i'm new here, but pianomahn sems a bit uptight to me... ok fair enough it is deception but it is not intended to caus harm, just to have a little fun with your partner... well thats my 2 cents anyway...
|
|
|
|
|
pianomahnn
Dec 25, 2001, 4:24 PM
Post #17 of 28
(5908 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 17, 2001
Posts: 3779
|
I'm getting cranky and crotchety in my old age.
I'm not uptight, I just don't enjoy people making blind assumptions about me. It's a pet peeve in real life as much as it is on this intrawebnet thingiemabobber.
|
|
|
|
|
pianomahnn
Dec 25, 2001, 4:33 PM
Post #18 of 28
(5908 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 17, 2001
Posts: 3779
|
I traveled into the depths of my brain to recall the definition of "sandbag" and it was to give a lower rating to a climb than what it actually is. Our very own Climbing Terms List says the same thing.
It seems from this thread though that we have added some new definitions to this word. Is it possible we're just mistaken using the word sandbag and should replace it with something else, or is this word just evolving to encompass all acts of deceptive climbing?
That being said, does sandbagging go the other direction? Overrating a climb in order to make oneself look better? Perhaps the anti-sandbag?
Oh jeebus, this is Christmas, I should stop thinking and drink some eggnog.
|
|
|
|
|
bobmarleyforprez
Dec 25, 2001, 7:51 PM
Post #19 of 28
(5910 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 2, 2001
Posts: 1
|
climberchic i really likrd what you said bout the magician. made me think.
NM
|
|
|
|
|
climberchic
Dec 25, 2001, 11:04 PM
Post #20 of 28
(5908 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 24, 2000
Posts: 2077
|
Thanks, 420
My point was just that every time I climb a route that someone oohs and aahs at, I don't feel it my responsibility to tell them all of the work that did or did not go into it. If they asked me directly I would, personally, tell the truth. But I see nothing wrong in a little fun either. If my partner, whom I know his limits (grmr?), "flashes" a route that actually he had been working on for a while, it would give me more confidence when I try it and the persistance to send as well. However, if there is danger involved, such as short changing the runout or making petty a route that a less experienced climber may get injured, that is NOT OK. I'm sure we are all agreed on that one.
In general, it is all in good competitive fun.
But Piano is right. We are actually misusing the word "sandbag" itself. It means to underate a route in order to make the route setter look more accomplished. I think what we have been sounds something like "showdogging". To parade your gorgeous self around and except praises on your beauty without divulging the work that went into it. Anyone agree?
|
|
|
|
|
graniteboy
Dec 26, 2001, 12:12 AM
Post #21 of 28
(5909 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 1, 2001
Posts: 1092
|
No, hey, I don't agree. Although sandbagging can be defined as "to deliberately underrate something so you look cool", The people I climb with (translate; much of the state population of California) and I have tended to use the word to describe any kind of under-estimating the route for the sake of inflating your own ego. That can mean saying; 'yeah, it's not too runout", or "No, the cravasses weren't too bad", or "yeah, it's 10c..pretty straightforward", while failing to tell them that the runout involves a groundfall potential, the crevasses are covered with a thin film of soft snow, or that the 10c is a wet, crumbly offwidth (eg keeler needle crux pitch)...It's not just the "rating", cause much of climbing is not represented by just the rating. Sandbagging is the more general situation, of which underrating is a subset. It's a larger picture than just lying about a V6, saying it's V2.
|
|
|
|
|
phil_nev
Dec 27, 2001, 8:58 AM
Post #22 of 28
(5909 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 11, 2001
Posts: 361
|
sorry pianomahn, was not meaning to offend, jsu noticed u seem to get fired up ver easily, why cant we all just be freinds
|
|
|
|
|
matt
Dec 27, 2001, 1:23 PM
Post #23 of 28
(5909 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 4, 2001
Posts: 1703
|
If we're going to get into meanings...
To Lie:
lie2
n.
1) A false statement deliberately presented as being true; a falsehood.
2) Something meant to deceive or give a wrong impression.
v. lied, ly·ing,lies
v. intr.
1) To present false information with the intention of deceiving.
2) To convey a false image or impression: Appearances often lie.
To Deceive
de·ceive
v. de·ceived, de·ceiv·ing, de·ceives
v. tr.
1) To cause to believe what is not true; mislead.
2) Archaic. To catch by guile; ensnare.
v. intr.
1) To practice deceit.
2) To give a false impression: appearances can deceive.
To Sandbag well, I would say is a combination of the two, but is it wrong? That's a choice each of us has to make for himself/herself in their particular situation. One person cannot judge another, less they judge themselves.
Climb on!
|
|
|
|
|
pianomahnn
Dec 27, 2001, 3:06 PM
Post #24 of 28
(5908 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 17, 2001
Posts: 3779
|
Phil, no worries dude. I love everyone!
Sometimes it may not seem like it, though.
|
|
|
|
|
dhoyne
Dec 27, 2001, 5:25 PM
Post #25 of 28
(5908 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 27, 2001
Posts: 66
|
If you're reason for climbing is to impress others, then sandbag. If you're a real climber and you climb for yourself, there's no need to sandbag. This is kinda like climbing a route that's massively overrated just to say you climb at that rating.
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
