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dirtineye
Apr 23, 2003, 2:53 PM
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Anyone know why those nice looking cracks at owens are bolted?
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tim
Apr 23, 2003, 3:03 PM
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Why don't you ask Peter Croft, he's not a trad climber or anything...
They're bolted (and remain unchopped) because the rock is friable enough, and the local ethics permissive enough, to leave it that way.
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kalcario
Apr 23, 2003, 3:15 PM
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From an article Peter Croft wrote for the 1999 R&I Road Trip issue:
"Many of the routes wrestle massive semi-detached flakes that hold bodyweight just fine. But should any brainless hero think to pop cams behind one of these flakes and take a fall, I'm certain it'd swoop down lika a 10 ton manta and bury him...Another time, a climber who had ventured onto the Roof assured us that the bolts were unnecessary. This, in spite of the unusually bubbly patina that lines the cracks and pops under cam pressure."
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stewbabby
Apr 23, 2003, 3:44 PM
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First: I have not climbed at owens and know very little about it. I am making my statements based off of what I have seen on this site (both photos and coments)
Neither of the routes that I have seen on here that are bolted cracks are flakes. Now, I have no idea what the rock quality is like, but it seems to me that most people think that it is OK, because thats the "local ethic".... or lack there of. Im just saying that if this place was here in the south, that many of those bolts wouldnt have been there a day.
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mreardon
Apr 23, 2003, 4:36 PM
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Stew - you need to visit to understand. If you go and decide that the rock is strong enough to hold your falls and it does, then feel free to put up a couple routes on lead with just the gear. There's one or two blocks with fryable rock that I'm sure would love to feel your weight on them....
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dingus
Apr 23, 2003, 4:47 PM
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In reply to: First: I have not climbed at owens and know very little about it. I am making my statements based off of what I have seen on this site (both photos and coments) Neither of the routes that I have seen on here that are bolted cracks are flakes. Now, I have no idea what the rock quality is like, but it seems to me that most people think that it is OK, because thats the "local ethic".... or lack there of. Im just saying that if this place was here in the south, that many of those bolts wouldnt have been there a day.
I've climbed extensively in both places, the south and the west. No offence Stew, but if you or any of your southern hardboy friends want to come on out and waltz up those climbs without clipping any fixed pro, have at it! The people who developed Owens Gorge have very strong trad ethics and track records. But they, like Arno Illgner in your neck of the woods, have also embraced a new dynamic and are nimble enough of mind and tolerance to "Do as Romans" when in Rome. I only hope you have a similar respect for the locals and their ways when you visit. Then you can drive on up to the Buttermilk to sample the 'other side of bold' as it were.
And I've seen plenty of bolts next to cracks in the south, as far back as the early 80's. While I totally respect the southern trad ethic, to be completely forthright, it was never as militant as the late comes portray. And a 1/4 inch split shaft in sand stone... I can readily understand the reluctance to clip one of those babies!
DMT
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lorca
Apr 23, 2003, 4:58 PM
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Another consideration, in this instance as well as others, is that climbing in Owens is permitted at the discretion of an agency (the LAPWD) that can summarily revoke it. While not dispositive, it is important to add the potential access impacts resulting from a severe injury or death in a particular venue to the ethical matrix.
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drkodos
Apr 23, 2003, 5:02 PM
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Dingus is on the mark.
Plenty of bolts in the souith sitting next to cracks ( does Bourbon Sauce 5.11 ring a bell?)
I am anti bolt.
I am anti sport climbing.
I am against bolts and fixed anchors in the wilderness.
I have been to Owens and their bolting makes sense. Establishment of and adherence to local ethics is a primary driving force in the climbing community. I never bring my ethos with me to a new area. Instead, I try to soak up and maybe even understand why different areas have differing ethics.
At Owens it is a matter of the rock not being able to withstand the pressures exerted by camming devices and passive pro. There has been PLENTY written on this issue, and one so inclined has a plethora of solid info to gaze upon when answering this question.
And remember, as always, one is totally free to not clip a single bolt when they climb any particular route. :wink:
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stewbabby
Apr 23, 2003, 6:32 PM
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drkodos and dingus,
Well written responses form both of you. As I said I have not been there and know very little about the place.
I agree with you guys on the matter of not bringing your ethics to an area that is not in your area. I have climbed at several different areas both in the US and in other countries that have very different ethics from those in my local area, and I have enjoyed myself at all of them. My observations were only based off of what I saw on this site. Both of the routes that I saw pictures of looked like stellar trad routes. Primarily the B&W from the upper gorge. I know that this has been hashed out over and over by many people with far more knowledge than any of us so I don’t really care. My only real issue, witch really doesn’t matter because its my opinion, is that everyone keeps saying that bolts are the ethic there and that is ok. My own personal beliefs are more along the lines of if the route has good protection, regardless of what the "masses" think then it is a trad route. But hell, what do I know?????
As for Bourbon Sauce, the only route that I know of by this name is in WV at the new(I think). I have never done the route, nor seen pics. I just know of it from hearsay or guidebooks. Also there are lines here in the south that have been put up with bolts next to pro. But the large majority of them have been chopped. The only area that is in my "home range" that has seen rampant bolting is sandrock, Al. and most of the retro lines have been chopped. There are still a few lines that have bolts on them that can be done on gear. I have been on several of them and placed pro right beside the bolts.
For the record I never said that I was on my way out there to chop. I just said that If it was in my neck of the woods I don’t think that those bolts would be there. If I ever do get the chance to climb there I will be more than happy to form my own educated opinion and if the lines will go on gear, then I will do them that way.
anyway.... climb on and climb safe.
stewart
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stewbabby
Apr 23, 2003, 7:07 PM
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If a mod sees this: This and the other thread with the same title should probably both be moved and combined if possible. the other thread is found at the link below.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=30203&forum=20
stewart
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dirtineye
Apr 23, 2003, 11:13 PM
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Well so much for trying to find out if trad forum people would respond differently from sport forum people hahahaha.
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