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graniteboy
Dec 31, 2001, 11:07 PM
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Several of us have been discussing self rescue methods for small parties, and the importance of this knowledge to all climbers. How many of you know how to do a simple belay escape? For those completely out of this loop, this means that, in the case of an accident, you can get your partner tied off to an anchor in such a way that you can get help, or help them, and then still be able to get them back on belay and lower them (or them and a rescuer) down when you put them back on belay....
In my experience, less than half of rock climbers know how to do this..I'm taking a poll; do you know how to do this?? Be frank about this; it's OK to still have things to learn. We all do.
[ This Message was edited by: graniteboy on 2001-12-31 15:19 ]
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nikegirl
Dec 31, 2001, 11:30 PM
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I personally do not know.
There was a forum posted back awhile ago... I was lashed at a little...about my lack of knowledge, and total trust in my partners.
It made me think.
I do not know, how to do this ...and intend on taking a Climbing/mountaineering course eventually...
But, until then...I'm a sponge.
Any and all information, I will gladly take. Listen. And never take it personal. I am a good listener.
How else will I know, and learn.
Good thread.
T
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rockjock04
Jan 1, 2002, 12:02 AM
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I share nikegirls opinion. I am willing to learn anything anyone can offer. Even though I dont do lead climbing yet. So I certainly dont know. but if I did lead climb, I would certainly make it a point to learn.
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fo_d
Jan 1, 2002, 12:05 AM
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No, mostly I climb single pitch sport routes, but this seems like it something I should learn anyway. I've been thinking about hiring an instructor to learn how to use a soloist self belay tool so I guess I'll ask about the belay escape too.
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graniteboy
Jan 1, 2002, 12:37 AM
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FISH ON!! I knew I'd get a bite on that one...
OK, we have a 100% "I don't know" response so far, indicating this info is in HIGH demand...
SOOOO: Let's assume a simple situation first; You're on the ground, belaying a leader, you have 3 bolts at your feet for an anchor (how likely that is is actually a joke, but we'll assume you have a ready made anchor which will take an upward pull very well...). Your leader is exactly 150 feet out (beyond halfway on the 200' rope, so you can't just lower them to the ground), and they take a short leader fall. They think they've broken or seriously sprained their ankle, but it's not bleeding.
You think you'll need some help from the climbers who are just around the corner, to get your friend lowered to the ground, but they can't hear you. You'll need to go over there to get some help, so they can help you lower your friend to the ground. For the rest of this little seminar, we'll assume that your friend is Alert and responsive, and is safe from objective hazards like rockfall, etc. They want to go home and get an xray. They tell you that they have 2 completely bombproof pieces of pro placed right next to each other, which caught the fall.
The first thing you need now, in order to get help, is a way to get yourself out of the belay.
SO: let's start building a load release hitch..BUT FIRST; check out this page; it has a thing called a mule knot on it. http://wac.icomm.ca/classes/climbingclass/knots/Mule.html. Practice the mule knot(with knowledgeable supervision and a backup belay) at your gym. Practice by lowering a toproped climber until they're just, say 5 or 6 feet off the ground. Then tie them off with a mule hitch.
(A backup belay is where you have a second belayer belaying the slack rope right beyond where the rope goes thru your belay device. If you, the primary belayer, REALLY screw something up, they're there to stop the hapless falling climber from decking).
The Mule knot is the first thing you need to know, so you can get your hands free to build the load release system using those three cool bolts so usefully placed right at your feet. We'll get into one form of the load release knot next. Eventually, we'll know a few ways to keep this guy at bay.
Cya then.
Granite.
[ This Message was edited by: graniteboy on 2001-12-31 16:49 ]
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wigglestick
Jan 1, 2002, 6:36 PM
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I know how to escape a belay and have practiced it many times and have fortunately not had to do it in combat yet. But I must admit that I climbed for many years without knowing the first thing about it. Very stupid. I suggest that everybody who aspires to climb anything more than 25 meters tall go and buy "Self Rescue" which is one of the Falcon Series of instructionaly books and practice the techniques often before you actually need to use them.
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saltspringer
Jan 1, 2002, 7:44 PM
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yup, I know how to escape the belay with the mule knot/LR hitch setup...the best thing to do is to practice in a controlled environment (ie: gym) and try the setup with a chair or other somewhat heavy object. I enjoy trying out different configurations with various bits & pieces of gear to see how I'd fair with a bare minimun of gear in a tight spot. Knowing the setup is one thing but to know a few alternatives can be what really saves your butt in the end!
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saltspringer
Jan 1, 2002, 11:30 PM
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OK, so your leader has fallen & is unconcious: try to "tie off" a loaded belay and then set yourself up independent of the rope...give it a try with a dead weight and see what it's like logistically to free yourself of the weight, undo your belay device, stay secure (you may be several pitches up) and then deal with ascending/descending the rope to help an unconcious or uncooperative partner. Lots of techniques sound easy until you try them out and then you realize all of the factors that you never took into consideration (how not to shock load your belay/climber): better to try it out in a non-emergency situation and see how well you do & then post your results to RC.com and let us know how easy it was after all
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graniteboy
Jan 3, 2002, 4:13 AM
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I'm Baaaaack.
Now That you're a seasoned expert with tying off your climbing partner with a mule hitch (see link on previous post), you need to learn a couple of knots called Friction Knots. Friction knots are designed to act like an ascender; they grab the rope when you need them to, and release when you want them to (actually, 2 minor points; 1)ascenders were designed to act like a friction knot, not vice versa, because friction knots were around for a few centuries B4 jumars came into existence, and 2)sometimes friction knots won't release quite as readily as you'd like...)
There are a number of these friction knots out there, and the Prussik has long been the climber's favorite. It must be learned, so check out this site, and buy yourself 15 to 20' of 6mm or 7mm perlon, to make yourself a prussik sling, which you will always carry with you from now on, except when you're sending 5.13. (do NOT use spectra for this purpose). I repeat: do NOT use spectra for prussik cord. http://ruckus.org/knots/prusik.html On that webpage, the knot is shown tied with two loops, and with three loops. I, and most people in the know, prefer the prussik with three loops. It holds better, as it has more points in contact with the climbing rope, thus giving a better grip on the rope.
The diameter of accessory cord used is dependent on the diameter of your climbing rope; I use 5mm or 6mm cord on a 9mm line when I'm on a glacier, and I use 6mm or 7mmm line on an 11 mm rope when I'm on rock. 6mm is a good all around diameter to use if you only want to have to buy one diameter. Note that the Prussik is a very symmetrical knot. This is good, because it means that there is no "upside down" for this knot. We'll talk about that later.
The Prussik, however, has long been known by River Guides and other assorted miscreants, like alpinists, to be an unreliable knot when working with wet ropes. It slips sometimes under those circumstances. Believe me when I tell you that you again that you do NOT want a friction knot that slips. For this reason, I suggest you learn another knot to supplement the Prussik for when it's wet outside; The Kleimheist. http://www.iland.net/~jbritton/kleimheist.htmBesides being more reliable on wet ropes, the kleimheist is best tied with WEBBING. And sometimes webbing is all you have when you have, say, forgotten your prussik cord, or used it to HANG your bouldering spotter (e.g. Nikegirl) because he let you deck and tweak yer ankle for fear of touching you on your anatomy...
Now, recall the the prussik is a symmetric knot, which means that there is no "upside down" way to tie the Prussik.... The Kleimheist is not symmetric. SOOO; when using the kleimheist, it is important to know which way the force will be pulling on the knot. In the webpage photo, the pull we would apply to the knot is meant to be from the bottom of the page. If you tie a kleinheist upside down, it may slip, sometimes badly. Play with this knot at home, and see what I mean. Please recall that you do NOT want a friction knot that slips. for this reason, you must actuallyPAY ATTENTION to which direction the "load" will be pulling from when tying a kleimheist.
Now, Paying attention has definitely become unpopular (I refer you to "accidents and Injuries page for proof, or look up any copy of "accidents in North American Mountaineering". 1991 is my personal favorite..), but, if you intend to graduate beyond the rank of DANGEROUS BUMBLY PEG, you must learn to pay attention in climbing, and particularly pay attention in Rescue situations.
Now, practice the mule hitch and the 2 friction knots you are learning, until you can tie them in the dark, using only your toes and teeth and a Daquiri straw....
there is alot to learn.
I intend to keep this thread alive until you have all become more knowledgeable than lots of SAR techs I've met....so keep looking it up from time to time...
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rrrADAM
Jan 3, 2002, 8:25 AM
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This is a SUPER topic.
I've had to get myself out of some hairy situations before, and the first thing is NOT TO PANIC !!! If you use your head you can get out of almost anything without compromising safety.
Just yesterday in J-Tree, not really self rescue but problem solving, I climbed Looney Tunes and had no way, I could see, to get down safely. Karen does not like dicey down climbs. So I found a place on a large boulder that would allow for a simul-rappel and still allow me to retrieve my rope without having to leave gear.
While doing a simul-rappel off Open Book in Tahquitz on a single rope, my fault cause we needed two, ended up 90 feet in the air with no rap station in site. I was too low to set up the the two bolt belay station near my partner, so I verbaly gave him exact instructions tie off his line and how to use my cord and chain links to set up an rap station. He the belayed me to that point where we rapped down.
On Devil's Tower, notorious for eating ropes pulled from above rap stations... Our rope was eaten BELOW us after it fell free. I rapped down to the point where the ropes were stuck, built an anchor system for me, Got off rap, cleared the ropes, had Karen pull them up and reset for a rap from the middle, got back on and finished the rap down.
On the Bartison Wall in Needles, SD, had to rap down mid climb with no set rap station... Used a baseball size rock as a chock stone, tied webbing to in with links, set up rap backed up by 3 cams, but with slack in the back up so I was only weighting the chock stone, both Karen and I got on the rope and bounce tested it, she rapped down, I removed the cams, and walla, I'm here with all my gear. Feel bad about poluting the rock with my poot sling though.
Morral of the stories... Don't panic, and use your head, you can escape almost anything safely.
rrrADAM
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greatgarbanzo
Jan 3, 2002, 3:59 PM
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I know how to perform all of the self rescue technique because I am a self rescue MANIAC!!!
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lschlack
Jan 4, 2002, 2:32 AM
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I would just like to say thank you for this information, I did not know how to do this and will take the time to work on it.
Great Job!
Regards,
Larry
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voltzwgn
Dec 8, 2002, 6:40 PM
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So it's about time we get our leader down off the rock he's been up there for a long time. So I've tied off my belay device using the mule knot. This allowed me to get both hands free, so now I tied a prussik to the weight bearing rope, between the belay device and the fallen climber. I've tied the prussik into the anchor station set to take upward pull. Now I untie the mule knot, and then slowly let out rope through the belay device until the prussik catches and is now holding the weight of the fallen climber. Now I finally escape the belay and go for help. Oh wait before I walk away from this setup and leave the lead climber hanging from the prussik with no backup. I tie a figure 8 on a bight and clip this into the anchor system also. Now I can go around the corner and get help for the fallen climber.
Ok, we're back and turns out they don't know much more than I, so I tie in on the rope supplied by the climbers around the corner and start up to where my buddies hanging. I get up there and he's hanging on the rope off the protection he set before he fell. Cause his ankle's tweaked he can't help me get his weight off the rope so now I'm stuck I've got him tied off and safe, but how do I get his weight off the rope he was leading on so that I can get him off that rope and into position so I can do an assisted rappel and get him down off the rock.
edited for clarity
[ This Message was edited by: voltzwgn on 2002-12-09 19:36 ]
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katydid
Dec 9, 2002, 1:15 PM
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Conceptually, I can grasp all of this, just like I could grasp it the last time I read about self-rescue in a book. However, I find can't translate it into real life, like how to tie the actual mule knot, etc. (Us damn kinetic learners..... )
But what's a REAL beaut is that I've checked all the local guiding joints for a class on self-rescue, and haven't found a single one (ontarioguide, if you know something I don't, PLEASE let me know). Maybe the schools around here don't have the demand for the classes, or maybe they have a brief overview in one of their others, but I find it a little scary that they'd teach everything BUT self-rescue.
Oh, well, off to find some of the locals with encyclopedic knowledge and see if they're willing to spend a couple afternoons with me showing me how this stuff works for a beer or two.....
Kate
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lazide
Dec 9, 2002, 2:02 PM
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The reason why is that an improperly performed self-rescure is often worse than no rescue at all.
Not to long ago there was an instance where, a couple pitches up, a leader fell (decked on a ledge I think) and broke his ankle, and the second, stupidly, managed to kill them both with his bungled self-rescue techniques.
Don't attempt these things without proper (SAFE!) practice and instruction - screwing them up is nearly a guarantee of death - perhaps for everyone involved.
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coach
Dec 10, 2002, 6:16 PM
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Lots of good advice here on this subject and all I can add is that you should first read up all you can on the subject and then hook up with someone knowledgeable in it and practice. There are several ways to do it depending on the situation (ground belay, hanging belay, belaying lead or second) and each one can vary the setup somewhat so get with someone that knows about it and have them show you.
Climb On
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drector
Dec 10, 2002, 6:33 PM
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To the original question: Yes, I know how to do this. I have only practiced a portion of the task while showing someone how to escape the belay but we didn't get back on belay.
There are many other self-rescue techniques that can be practiced alone with a rope and an eye-bolt in the wall.
Dave
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coldclimb
Dec 10, 2002, 7:10 PM
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Hmm, goo info. I did need to know this. I could have easily escaped the belay with an ascender, a runner, and a few biners, which I have on my rack which is usually right in front of me hanging on the rock, but it might not always be there. I didn't know the mule knot, I'll have to practice that one. Thanks for the info man...
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mikedano
Dec 10, 2002, 7:43 PM
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So I have a question:
Say the leader had just fallen and you needed to escape the belay. Could you take the slack from your brake hand, tie it directly to the anchor with a figure eight, and then just unclip from your belay carabiner (leaving the belay device and belay carabiner still on the rope)? From then on, you could use the munter hitch/carabiner brake rappel instead of the belay device, and then it would be waiting there on the rope for you when you returned.
Am I retarded or would that work too?
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voltzwgn
Dec 10, 2002, 8:09 PM
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If you can do all that when the rope is weighted without dropping the load, to me this is the problem you are dealing with ropes that are weighted. And if the injured party is out of sight and can't communicate your not going to be able to risk moving them very much.
Try hanging 150 lbs. off the ground through something that simulates the scenario, low friction, and see how difficult it becomes to do things that are so simple when there is no load.
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mrhappy
Dec 10, 2002, 8:14 PM
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Not a clue, beyond what I've read but the gym I climb at has a self-rescue course that we'll be taking at some point.
Katydid: the Rock Oasis in Toronto offers the self-rescue course I mentioned above. A bit of a hike from Toronto, but maybe worth it?
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coach
Dec 10, 2002, 9:19 PM
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Mike,
When it is done correctly you remove all the weight from yourself before ever untying from the rope so the risk to you is less. All the force is between the cordelette (or webbing) and the rope leading to the climber and you can then easily come out of the belay.
Climb On
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philbox
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Dec 10, 2002, 9:24 PM
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Check out this article I wrote on leader rescues.
http://www.chockstone.org/TechTips/LeaderRescue.htm
...Phil...
Editted for spelling mistake
[ This Message was edited by: philbox on 2002-12-12 13:03 ]
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climb4life
Dec 12, 2002, 4:40 AM
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i am a trainee for mountian search and rescue as a program for school. there, i have learned the basic skills of rescueing someone on the wall. it doesn't require much equipment to get yourself down if a climber is uncounsious. be very very nice if had a second rope. but i highly recommend people who are serious climber to take a few lessons on self rescue. not just from a book but from an intructor. I have learned that it can save me a lot of hassel on the wall. prussik knots are very very common. and they do work even when weather is wet. there are also other knots to know such as sheepend bend on the bite, and others that are very very ussfull. take a course or two and it might make a big difference on your climb.
happy climbing
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pbjosh
Dec 12, 2002, 7:18 AM
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I don't have the energy or the accredation to teach self rescue but I will say this to everyone:
You should be competent in and regularly practice self rescue. What sounds good in concept is harder to manage in person. What reads well in the book and what knots tie well at home don't work as well during a simulated rescue.
When an accident does occur, you need to have your understanding of self-rescue dialed. Because it's not going to happen in a simple way that you've practiced, and it's not going to match a scenario from a book, and you're going to have to stay calm, think smart, TRUST yourself in a very stressful and dangerous situation, improvise, and act decisively and competently.
Last spring my partner and girlfriend was nearly killed in an ugly, long, tumbling lead fall high on a really remote wall. I was very happy to have practiced self rescue as well as I have, and I keep up on it to this day.
josh
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